Greetings from ANA Summer Seminar 1 1

[VKurtB]

For people who prefer to practice numismatics online, this event is “Injun Country”. Most everyone here disdains the online hobby pretty regularly and severely. I am at a break from “ Advanced Study of World Coins”, taught by Rick Montgomery and Ben Wengel of NGC. Learning a whole bunch about Asian counterfeits, restrikes, fantasy pieces of the pre-1949 era. A lot of Chinese Republic stuff. 
 

Last night I gave my talk on the status of SP designated modern coins. @RWB is really onto something. PCGS and NGC actually define SP significantly differently. I got Rick Montgomery to admit the hobby badly needs a consistent use of this indication or designation. For now, each firm thinks they use it correctly. Sad. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

Tonight’s freebie after dinner talks:

6:30 - Joe Boling on “What happened to the gold seal?”

7:30 - Mike Nottelmann (The Coin Show Podcast) on “Podcasts and Content Publishing: Creating Content on a (Shoestring) Budget”

[VKurtB]

Sample slab given by Montgomery and Wengel after the “Inside NGC” talk this afternoon:

[Just Bob]

Did they offer you a job?

[VKurtB]

On 6/20/2023 at 10:23 PM, Just Bob said:

Did they offer you a job?

They in essence offered all of us jobs. I am too old to begin a new career that would take a lot of NGC’s resources to train me in “NGC’s way”. It’d be like going to law school at 50. You won’t be practicing long enough to pay off your loans. 

[VKurtB]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:03 AM, VKurtB said:

They in essence offered all of us jobs. I am too old to begin a new career that would take a lot of NGC’s resources to train me in “NGC’s way”. It’d be like going to law school at 50. You won’t be practicing long enough to pay off your loans. 

The typo in the title is all ANA’s. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

Did you get to see a lot of raw SP coins ?

[zadok]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:19 PM, VKurtB said:

The typo in the title is all ANA’s. 

...just curious, did the word "handling" come up during the course?...i know in discussions i had with the mint master at King Nortons he was adamant about that in their determinations on SP coins....

[VKurtB]

On 6/22/2023 at 6:43 AM, J P M said:

Did you get to see a lot of raw SP coins ?

We did. Numerous ultra-rare proofs, too. And NO ONE IN THE ROOM WORE GLOVES! Sorry, it is by and large NOT DONE.

[zadok]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:45 PM, VKurtB said:

We did. Numerous ultra-rare proofs, too. And NO ONE IN THE ROOM WORE GLOVES! Sorry, it is by and large NOT DONE.

...my earlier question referencing "handling" was not about the handling of the SP coins in the present but of during the minting process....

[J P M]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:45 PM, VKurtB said:

We did. Numerous ultra-rare proofs, too. And NO ONE IN THE ROOM WORE GLOVES! Sorry, it is by and large NOT DONE.

That sounds like you had fun.  

[VKurtB]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:30 PM, J P M said:

That sounds like you had fun.  

If I had had any more fun, there might have needed to be a Congressional investigation.

[VKurtB]

I also learned something else unintentionally. My course work was all about authentication, and mostly not grading per se. When we very briefly did a grading exercise, I re-learned something anew that I once was highly aware of but forgot - virtually no coin collectors can grade worth a darn. We looked at 10 coins. Most of the guys, even those who work daily in the field, had at least three of the ten as Details coins for one reason or another. All were 1860 or earlier coins. As far as I could figure, I was the only guy who got it right that all of them were straight numerical grades. Yes, one was a PF61, and a severe ugloid, but none were Details coins. No US coins. All pre-1860 foreign coins from every continent, including Antarctica. And North America was only covered by early Caribbean stuff. I also spent the LEAST amount of time per coin, other than the guys that work at NGC. The average pro grader spends less than 5 seconds per coin for MOST material. The exception is when authentication is the key element.

Edited June 24, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:30 PM, VKurtB said:

I also learned something else unintentionally. My course work was all about authentication, and mostly not grading per se. When we very briefly did a grading exercise, I re-learned something anew that I once was highly aware of but forgot - virtually no coin collectors can grade worth a darn. We looked at 10 coins. Most of the guys, even those who work daily in the field, had at least three of the ten as Details coins for one reason or another. All were 1860 or earlier coins. As far as I could figure, I was the only guy who got it right that all of them were straight numerical grades. Yes, one was a PF61, and a severe ugloid, but none were Details coins. No US coins. All pre-1860 foreign coins from every continent, including Antarctica. And North America was only covered by early Caribbean stuff. I also pent the LEAST amount of time per coin, other than the guys that work at NGC.

Well That's a kick in the pants. I think most of the regulars around here do a purity good job of grading.  Obviously you are on that list with some others here.

[VKurtB]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:42 PM, J P M said:

Well That's a kick in the pants. I think most of the regulars around here do a purity good job of grading.  Obviously you are on that list with some others here.

But I refuse to get sucked into grading from photos. I'll give a "qualitative" opinion, but without being able to "tilt and swirl" the coin in the proper light, I ain't a-givin' no numerical opinions.

[J P M]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:47 PM, VKurtB said:

But I refuse to get sucked into grading from photos. I'll give a "qualitative" opinion, but without being able to "tilt and swirl" the coin in the proper light, I ain't a-givin' no numerical opinions.

I agree it is not the real deal. I think if the photo is good, most of the time the comments correspond with a as close as can be expected. Truth be said .... Grading is just a opinion..   

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:47 PM, VKurtB said:

.... but without being able to "tilt and swirl" the coin in the proper light ....

Is it safe to assume, as regarding "proper light," this is a veiled reference to incandescent?  🤣

[VKurtB]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:56 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Is it safe to assume, as regarding "proper light," this is a veiled reference to incandescent?  🤣

Ye#, it is. As of now, ONLY incandescent is an accepted standard for grading. And yes, our light fixtures and bulbs were the old school standard, including 100w incandescent bulbs imported from China, because they’re no longer legal to buy or sell domestically. And our good buddy F. Michael “Skip” Fazzari, aka here as @Insider can protest, gripe, and kvetch all he likes, but fluorescent lighting is no good for evaluating coins. No. Bueno. Señor. It simply is incapable of accurately rendering the color of ANYTHING. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:08 PM, VKurtB said:

but fluorescent lighting is no good for evaluating coins. No. Bueno. Señor. It simply is incapable of accurately rendering the color of ANYTHING. 

Explain.....

[Project Numismatics]

@VKurtB - it was good to meet you and I really enjoyed your talk!

This was my first Summer Seminar and I can say with confidence that I will not miss another aside from extraordinary circumstances. It was that good and I can’t recommend it enough.

Some eye candy from Kurt’s talk below. Unfortunately the room was very poorly lit, so my photos are bad.

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 6/25/2023 at 7:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Explain.....

Fluorescent lights generate a “bright line emission spectrum”, in which only very few wavelengths are present, and the massive majority of wavelengths are completely absent. Incandescent bulbs create a continuous spectrum of wavelengths until SOMETHING that the light passes through removes some of the wavelengths, such as in a narrow pass filter. To render color accurately requires a continuous spectrum.

Source: Physics curriculum, Franklin & Marshall College, Lancaster, PA, 1973-1977. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:00 PM, VKurtB said:

Fluorescent lights generate a “bright line emission spectrum”, in which only very few wavelengths are present, and the massive majority of wavelengths are completely absent. Incandescent bulbs create a continuous spectrum of wavelengths until SOMETHING that the light passes through removes some of the wavelengths, such as in a narrow pass filter. To render color accurately requires a continuous spectrum.

Source: Physics curriculum, Franklin & Marshall College, Lancaster, PA, 1973-1977. 

Led is also way to bright and white.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:51 PM, J P M said:

Led is also way to bright and white.

An incandedcent light, like the sun, provides a single source of warm light

Fluorescents, like LEDs flood the focus of your interest compelling the human eye to seek out contrast. There is.little or no contrast. The human eye tires quickly under the prolonged, day-by-day stress. I dare say a substantial portion of the reading public, myself included, have suffered loss of vision for no other reason than economic interests.

[VKurtB]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:04 PM, Henri Charriere said:

An incandedcent light, like the sun, provides a single source of warm light

Fluorescents, like LEDs flood the focus of your interest compelling the human eye to seek out contrast. There is.little or no contrast. The human eye tires quickly under the prolonged, day-by-day stress. I dare say a substantial portion of the reading public, myself included, have suffered loss of vision for no other reason than economic interests.

If you're claiming that fluorescent and LED light bulbs have damaged your vision for no worthwhile reason whatsoever, I agree completely. 100% all-time scam. But the "green agenda" has the George Costanza defense at hand. "It's not a lie..., if you believe it." The problem is what they believe.

Edited June 27, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Were there any talks -- or any TALK -- or panel discussions, etc...concerning the state of the hobby ?

I mean...we just had a once-in-a-lifetime event, Covid-19...we shut down the economy....people spent time on their PCs with free money....we saw TONS more activity online from every site including eBay, Heritage, GC, and Stacks...plus others I probably don't know about.

I would think this would be of interest and being discussed by dealers, ANA officials, the usual people you see at a big convention.  

Hello ?

[zadok]

On 6/28/2023 at 12:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Were there any talks -- or any TALK -- or panel discussions, etc...concerning the state of the hobby ?

I mean...we just had a once-in-a-lifetime event, Covid-19...we shut down the economy....people spent time on their PCs with free money....we saw TONS more activity online from every site including eBay, Heritage, GC, and Stacks...plus others I probably don't know about.

I would think this would be of interest and being discussed by dealers, ANA officials, the usual people you see at a big convention.  

Hello ?

...not having been there i can only surmise, but imagine they gauge the state of the hobby by comparing attendance figures at major events where as the auction houses prob go by dollars realized, not sure bout the tpgs maybe by volume...based on recent prices it seems to be healthy...perhaps vkurt can elaborate since he attended....

[Henri Charriere]

[I do not know who runs "The Hobby," but maybe they ought to consider issuing an 'Annual Report.' "? ]

[VKurtB]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Were there any talks -- or any TALK -- or panel discussions, etc...concerning the state of the hobby ?

I mean...we just had a once-in-a-lifetime event, Covid-19...we shut down the economy....people spent time on their PCs with free money....we saw TONS more activity online from every site including eBay, Heritage, GC, and Stacks...plus others I probably don't know about.

I would think this would be of interest and being discussed by dealers, ANA officials, the usual people you see at a big convention.  

Hello ?

It was virtually ALL collectors and academics with very few dealers. There was no bourse, just the YN benefit auction.

[VKurtB]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:37 AM, zadok said:

...not having been there i can only surmise, but imagine they gauge the state of the hobby by comparing attendance figures at major events where as the auction houses prob go by dollars realized, not sure bout the tpgs maybe by volume...based on recent prices it seems to be healthy...perhaps vkurt can elaborate since he attended....

COVID is DONE! There were two people at Summer Seminar wearing masks, and one is an ANA employee. There seems to be NO lingering change. The live shows are kicking butt, pretty much without exception. Some people are still lost in their hypochondriacal "wet dream". We in Northern Alabama have been pretty much back to normal for two YEARS now. Yes, many small businesses have not re-opened. Governmental fear porn killed them. I moved out of Pennsylvania when I did BECAUSE OF Governor Wolf's idiocy. The only thing I observed in the Huntsville area post-November-2020 was that Great Clips would not do beard trims, and SOME medical offices required masks. I'll bet I logged FEWER hours behind a mask than anyone on this site, and I never caught a darned thing. I got the first two jabs and then the third, and swore I was DONE WITH IT! Then I became a clinical trial participant for an RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) vaccine study. I still have no idea if I was in the live vaccine group or the placebo control group. I haven't felt sick more than a single day at a time since December 2019.

Edited June 28, 2023 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Were there any talks -- or any TALK -- or panel discussions, etc...concerning the state of the hobby ?

I mean...we just had a once-in-a-lifetime event, Covid-19...we shut down the economy....people spent time on their PCs with free money....we saw TONS more activity online from every site including eBay, Heritage, GC, and Stacks...plus others I probably don't know about.

I would think this would be of interest and being discussed by dealers, ANA officials, the usual people you see at a big convention.  

Hello ?

This is pointless. The hobby is fine, maybe even overheated a little. I bought NADA online from ANY of those sources, during the scamdemic. I bought LIVE, FACE TO FACE. Yes, even then.

Edited June 28, 2023 by VKurtB