1882 CC GSA gear teeth like mark / damage 1 1

[txboaz55]

Hello Again & Happy fudge day 

I have a 1882 cc gsa coin in plastic holder

I didn't post pics of the whole coin as my question pertains to just one mark

I have seen similar marks on other coins and meant to study a bit on them.

Could yall give me a lead into the right path. Does it have a name?

the damage is so localized without collateral damage to the area around it. The teeth marks seem to large to be from another coin 

Thank You

Boaz's Brother Daniel

[Just Bob]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:15 PM, txboaz55 said:

The teeth marks seem to large to be from another coin 

But that is, in fact, the most likely explanation. If your picture had included a section of the edge, it would make it easier to make that determination.

What is "fudge day"?

[EagleRJO]

Is the tooth like mark incuse, or cut into the surface of the coin as it appears to be?  If not PMD then maybe a struck through with a piece of wire or machine part?  [...]

Edited June 17, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Sandon]

 The circled area almost certainly shows a "milling mark" (a type of "bag mark") where the reeded or "milled" edge of another coin (very likely another 1882-CC dollar) pressed against this coin while the two coins were part of a 1,000 coin mint bag, in which the coins were likely stored from the time they were minted in 1882 until they were sorted for sale by the General Services Administration in the early 1970s.

   Newly minted coins intended for circulation are packed together in large quantities, allowing the coins to scrape against each other, leaving such scratches and abrasions.  This phenomenon is particularly severe in the case of Morgan and Peace dollars, which were packed into cloth bags of 1,000 coins each. Large numbers of these bags were then stacked on top of each other in Treasury and bank vaults in which they were stored for decades at a time and were tossed around when they were moved, resulting in coins that remained "uncirculated" but most of which were moderately to heavily bagmarked. One of the major factors for the grading of such coins is the number, location, and severity of such marks. Even Morgan dollars grading MS 67 or higher have a few bag marks, and the more heavily bagmarked coins will grade no higher than MS 62.

  As noted by others, please post clear, cropped photos of each side of each coin about which you have questions, not just closeups. See more generally the following topic:

 

   

Edited June 16, 2023 by Sandon

[RWB]

Agree with Sandon, however the damage is caused by impact when one coin falls from the press into the receiving bin and strikes a coin already there. The fall into a nearly empty bin could be 2 feet or more. (Combines weight and friction inside a bag is not sufficient to do more than make scratches)

Edited June 17, 2023 by RWB

[txboaz55]

As always thanks all yall for your time, I learn every time I come this place.

I thought of a bag mark but reading of the history of these coins I thought that it would take more than bag damage but if a whole bag took a fall, would without a doubt leave marks

But the wound is small and if in a bag you would I think to see more hit and sliding damage. But a fall of one coin into another with enough accelerated force could cause one coin to hit hard enough to ricochet with out causing more damage

Thanks RWB I never thought of a fall in such a way and with a little movement could make the metal expand causing the reed or teeth of the coin seem wider than normal

It seems gravity really can be a planchet buster

[RWB]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:02 PM, txboaz55 said:

I never thought of a fall in such a way and with a little movement could make the metal expand causing the reed or teeth of the coin seem wider than normal

The "divots" are from a coin's reeding pushing the other coin metal aside. A silver dollars is small, but with all the force concentrated on the tiny area were rim and reeds meet, there is considerable pressure. As the receiving bin fills, the falling distance decreases and so does the force, which then causes less damage to the coin that is hit.

As noted, this does NOT happen within a bag.

[Sandon]

   Although it is entirely possible that the milling mark was created at the mint in the manner described by @RWB, I have seen circulated coins with plain edges that have milling marks from contact with other coins, which could not occur in this manner but presumably resulted from the mixing of coins of different denominations in a bag. As I recall, I have a lightly circulated 1850 half cent that has an obverse milling mark. I don't presently have the coin available to photograph but will check it the next time I go to the safe deposit box where it is stored.

[J P M]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:35 AM, Sandon said:

   Although it is entirely possible that the milling mark was created at the mint in the manner described by @RWB, I have seen circulated coins with plain edges that have milling marks from contact with other coins, which could not occur in this manner but presumably resulted from the mixing of coins of different denominations in a bag. As I recall, I have a lightly circulated 1850 half cent that has an obverse milling mark. I don't presently have the coin available to photograph but will check it the next time I go to the safe deposit box where it is stored.

I have also seen many a security guard tossing bank bags 3 or 4 feet into the backs of armored trucks. That would be a hard hit and I think that has been going on for years.

[RWB]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:32 AM, J P M said:

I have also seen many a security guard tossing bank bags 3 or 4 feet into the backs of armored trucks. That would be a hard hit and I think that has been going on for years.

Handling damage is commonly a scrape, not the impact damage asked about. The available force relates to that occurring between two or more coins, and because the coins are already in contact inside a sewn or crimped bag, there is little of the edge-to-face contact necessary to produce sharp reed impressions. This is another misunderstanding where we once merely assumed details about the coining and coin handling process rather than critically examining the actual process.

"Believe" whatever you want, but please don't pass it off as fact.

[EagleRJO]

The mark on right of the attached enlarged view with a red arrow looks like a contact scrape.  But the tooth like marks on the left circled in red does not look like a contact mark from another Morgan to me, which have reeded edges in a much tighter pattern.  I agree with the op that tooth like marks seem too large and rounded to be from the edges of another Morgan.  What coin are you guys thinking made that mark with the fairly large rounded peaks and valleys?

Edited June 17, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:24 PM, RWB said:

Handling damage is commonly a scrape, not the impact damage asked about. The available force relates to that occurring between two or more coins, and because the coins are already in contact inside a sewn or crimped bag, there is little of the edge-to-face contact necessary to produce sharp reed impressions. This is another misunderstanding where we once merely assumed details about the coining and coin handling process rather than critically examining the actual process.

"Believe" whatever you want, but please don't pass it off as fact.

I agree that the coins get most of there marks from the bin dump at first. But I find it hard to believe that in a bag full of coins there are no coins that end up turned sideways inside the bag? 

Edited June 17, 2023 by J P M

[powermad5000]

I have nothing to gain by commenting on this thread, but I like to try to find solid evidence to support things. So, I have a small cloth bag (I have many small cloth bags holding different coins), but I think one is sufficient for this experiment. I chose my bag of "drummer boy" quarters (Bicentennial Quarters). This bag was not "rigged up". I simply took it out of my drawer. The pic is of the coins inside the bag. I found it interesting that the coins seem to gravitate towards their own "stacks" within the bag. As @RWB stated, interestingly I noted that most of the coins in their respective stacks are not end to face and that seems to continue to the bottom of the bag. I do note, however, one coin towards the middle that is faced next to a reeded edge. When I spun the bag closed to simulate a sealed, crimped Mint bag, there was literally no movement of the coins in the bag. 

Thinking of the Mint process, the coin goes from the press into the bin (hit), it has to go from the bin to the bag (hit), the bag has to go from the Mint to a truck (thrown in, possible hit), from the truck to a bank (thrown out, possible hit), from the bank to another bank.....you get the idea.

So I would say, anywhere from that coin coming out of the press, to the many ways it winds up in the hands of the current owner, there is a multitude of places where a hit can occur. Just my humble opinion.

[Bigodad]

On 6/16/2023 at 6:15 PM, txboaz55 said:

Hello Again & Happy fudge day 

I have a 1882 cc gsa coin in plastic holder

I didn't post pics of the whole coin as my question pertains to just one mark

I have seen similar marks on other coins and meant to study a bit on them.

Could yall give me a lead into the right path. Does it have a name?

the damage is so localized without collateral damage to the area around it. The teeth marks seem to large to be from another coin 

Thank You

Boaz's Brother Daniel

 

[Bigodad]

i also have 1882 cc GSA ms 64 dpl ....i dont see any mark like that on my coin strange....

[EagleRJO]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:01 PM, Bigodad said:

i also have 1882 cc GSA ms 64 dpl ....i dont see any mark like that on my coin strange....

That's not strange at all since there were over 1 Million 1882-CC coins struck in multiple batches, which were put in thousands of mint bags and then handled and circulated in different ways.  So all of these million coins can have distinctly different marks, or virtually none at all.

On 6/17/2023 at 4:48 PM, J P M said:

I agree that the coins get most of there marks from the bin dump at first. But I find it hard to believe that in a bag full of coins there are no coins that end up turned sideways inside the bag? 

Coins in a bag can definitely end up somewhat sideways or at an angle to other coins while being handled, and then have contact marks from other coins in the bag particularly when the bags are tossed around, with the coins moving around slightly and then dropping to the ground.

I think RWB was trying to say that when the bags are handled or are at rest on the floor that there likely are not any coins in a complete perpendicular edge-to-face position. I would tend to agree with that.

But the 1882-CC Morgan coin the OP has with larger tooth like marks definitely does not look like a contact mark from another Morgan, either from being dropped into a bin or being put in bags and tossed around. I have never seen a contact mark on a Morgan that looked like the one on the OP's coin, which has a mark with more rounded and spaced apart fairly large peaks and valleys.

[J P M]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:18 PM, EagleRJO said:

I have never seen a contact mark on a Morgan that looked like the one on the OP's coin, which has a mark with more rounded and spaced apart fairly large peaks and valleys.

I have seen that same mark many times on coins. I agree it looks to big to be from a reed edge but it may have distorted over time.

[powermad5000]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:18 PM, EagleRJO said:

that there likely are not any coins in a complete perpendicular edge-to-face position. I would tend to agree with that.

If you look in the photo I provided of the "example" bag I used, you do see one coin in just that position.

[EagleRJO]

On 6/18/2023 at 12:43 AM, powermad5000 said:

If you look in the photo I provided of the "example" bag I used, you do see one coin in just that position.

Well they are smaller quarters, and if larger dollars and you completely filled and closed up that bag cinched tight I doubt it would remain in that position.

But more importantly and to the point, even if a coin in a stuffed bag could end up in that position it would not produce the marks seen on the op"s coin.

Edited June 18, 2023 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:34 PM, J P M said:

I have seen that same mark many times on coins. I agree it looks to big to be from a reed edge but it may have distorted over time.

I have also seen something similar but smaller marks. But this one seems larger and just doesn't seem to fit. When I overplayed the reeded edge of a Morgan onto the mark on the op's coin at a similar scale it definitely was not a match. But if I had full sized pics of the op's coin I could better compare them.

Could you post some examples of other coins with that mark to compare the relative size. 

On 6/16/2023 at 9:02 PM, txboaz55 said:

... the reed or teeth of the coin seem wider than normal

@txboaz55 That's what I am seeing too. Can you post full size cropped pics of both sides of your coin so I can better scale the comparison.

Also, can you clarify if the marks are incluse, which is cut into the coin,  or raised which would be higher than the surrounding area on the coin. It does look a little like they are incuse marks. But I'm not completely sure as pics can be misleading sometimes.

Edited June 18, 2023 by EagleRJO

[txboaz55]

Will this topic has been interesting. I'm trying to learn how to use my new toy an amscope MU1803 but still cant figure to get whole coin on screen. The measurements on pic are real close I calibrated the scoop before doing so. Couldn't find spec on Morgan reed, height, width, spacing etc.... it wasn't even in my copy of Allen's encyclopedia of morgan & peace dollars. At a guess I'd say .003mm wide at base.

Were the 1882 CC GSA coins found in mixed coin bags. I don't remember reading so

[txboaz55]

Just show I'm I have been keeping up I got some whole coin pictures. This GSA is in the big plastic Carson City Holder, its not easy getting a good close up shoot

[J P M]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:46 AM, txboaz55 said:

Will this topic has been interesting. I'm trying to learn how to use my new toy an amscope MU1803 but still cant figure to get whole coin on screen. The measurements on pic are real close I calibrated the scoop before doing so. Couldn't find spec on Morgan reed, height, width, spacing etc.... it wasn't even in my copy of Allen's encyclopedia of morgan & peace dollars. At a guess I'd say .003mm wide at base.

Were the 1882 CC GSA coins found in mixed coin bags. I don't remember reading so

txboaz55....Try to place the coin on a white piece of paper put a soda can or glass next to it. With your cell phone resting on the top of the can zoom in to fill the screen with the coin and take a photo of the whole coin, both sides.

[Sandon]

    If you're using a digital microscope, place it on top of one or more books or similar objects until it can image the entire coin. Mine won't image a coin larger than a nickel without doing this.