Can you grade this 1913 T1 Buffalo Nickel ...assign your best grade using the photos. (I understand coins should be graded in hand so please don't make the comment this is for fun and practice) 1 1

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2023 at 2:18 PM, RWB said:

That merely emphasizes your loss.

EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET would be well served to completely ignore every word you've ever written on the subject of grading. You are dead wrong on that, and several other, subjects. Maybe you read and scan dusty old irrelevant documents in NARA's with an unusual fervor, and regurgitate it, sans further analysis, but as far as I can see, you are a "one trick pony" and that pony has come up lame.

[zadok]

On 6/11/2023 at 3:18 PM, RWB said:

That merely emphasizes your loss.

...ahhh, there's that merely again, it's starting to personify you...everyone needs a catch phrase....

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:55 PM, zadok said:

...ahhh, there's that merely again, it's starting to personify you...everyone needs a catch phrase....

Mine is, "who gives a 🐀's 🫏?"

[zadok]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:59 PM, VKurtB said:

Mine is, "who gives a 🐀's 🫏?"

...is that first rectangle a rat or a rooster, i cant keep my corners straight any more....

[VKurtB]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:05 PM, zadok said:

...is that first rectangle a rat or a rooster, i cant keep my corners straight any more....

The first one is a rat, and the second is a, err, umm, donkey. or another synonym. 

[J P M]

On 6/11/2023 at 8:25 AM, zadok said:

...i understand where u r coming from...however, "60 to 63" n "bit worn" r not mutually inclusive, its one or the other not both...ur observation on the line across the face is probably the most definitive, depending on the coin in hand that line could relegate the coin to details....

LoL  zadok, I will change that to a 63 and cents, liberty along the rim are worn. with a scratch on the cheek.

Edited June 12, 2023 by J P M

[VKurtB]

I do NOT see a worn LIBERTY, but I do see a not fully struck LIBERTY. Again, this is an element that could be determined one way or the other if the coin were physically before me. But alas, it is not. It’s yet another “photo fail”.

Look, I get it. Being able to use phone photos to grade coins would be a great convenience but it’s just not a reasonable expectation.  You have to have stuff right there in front of your face. I also get that this truth harms the Internet collecting mindset and “theory of the case.” It won’t go away just because you want it to. Doing this hobby correctly involves getting into modes of transportation and getting miles behind you, sometimes many hundreds or thousands of miles. Read the stock answers from the Ask NGC section. Buying a copy of Photograde simply ain’t gonna cut it. It never has. 

I gave up “playing numismatist” when the mandatory nature of doing travel got bashed into my thick skull. Others should too.

Edited June 12, 2023 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:45 PM, VKurtB said:

I do NOT see a worn LIBERTY, but I do see a not fully struck LIBERTY. Again, this is an element that could be determined one way or the other if the coin were physically before me. But alas, it is not. It’s yet another “photo fail”.

I go to fast sometimes or type bassakwards  Along the rim near liberty looks worn.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:30 AM, VKurtB said:

A technical 58 coin is, to me, usually VASTLY superior to a technical 61, and a RATIONAL (defined: rational is the antonym of technical) grading system needs to reflect that reality. 

It's like the debate over a mediocre-looking NEW car and a very good-looking USED car.

A nice-looking CIRCULATED AU-58 can easily look better than a low-60's UNCIRCULATED coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/11/2023 at 3:16 PM, RWB said:

This was the cornerstone of coin buying/selling before the TPGs promised consistency, but delivered confusion. 

I think we have consistency -- but also confusion !! 

[zadok]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:45 PM, VKurtB said:

I do NOT see a worn LIBERTY, but I do see a not fully struck LIBERTY. Again, this is an element that could be determined one way or the other if the coin were physically before me. But alas, it is not. It’s yet another “photo fail”.

Look, I get it. Being able to use phone photos to grade coins would be a great convenience but it’s just not a reasonable expectation.  You have to have stuff right there in front of your face. I also get that this truth harms the Internet collecting mindset and “theory of the case.” It won’t go away just because you want it to. Doing this hobby correctly involves getting into modes of transportation and getting miles behind you, sometimes many hundreds or thousands of miles. Read the stock answers from the Ask NGC section. Buying a copy of Photograde simply ain’t gonna cut it. It never has. 

I gave up “playing numismatist” when the mandatory nature of doing travel got bashed into my thick skull. Others should too.

...i concur...for example, when i was first at the National Collection seeing the Lilly Gold collection in its entirety n in person dwarfed the impression one would receive from seeing photos of it...in addition attendance at coin shows allows one to actually see items that will most likely never be photographed....

[VKurtB]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:32 AM, zadok said:

...i concur...for example, when i was first at the National Collection seeing the Lilly Gold collection in its entirety n in person dwarfed the impression one would receive from seeing photos of it...in addition attendance at coin shows allows one to actually see items that will most likely never be photographed....

Or the ANS’ collection, or the Tyrant collection, or whatever the ANA has mounted for display. I made a career out of photography from 1976 to 2001. I know how limited it is. It’s a substitute for seeing things in person. And it’s far better at being “interpretive” than it is at being “accurate”. 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/11/2023 at 5:25 AM, zadok said:

...i understand where u r coming from...however, "60 to 63" n "bit worn" r not mutually inclusive, its one or the other not both...ur observation on the line across the face is probably the most definitive, depending on the coin in hand that line could relegate the coin to details....

I dont think its a scratch it looks more like an edge roll gouge from being in a bag. The shape of the mark is about the size of a Buffalo rim. I am not sure if it will be graded/ holdered. They may see it as a scratch or..a bag mark. $23.00 and we will know for sure 

 

[Mike Meenderink]

So I thank all of you that have replied to this post. The discussion has proved helpful. I payed $15.00 for this coin. The surface is a satiny impaired luster with a light toning and a few very small carbon spots. The details IMO are UNC. The grade is for all intents an purposes somewhere around MS63-64. A 1913 P T1 Buffalo 5c in MS63 / 64 is valued between$65.00 /$90.00. I may have it graded. Then again I may not. Its definitely worth what I payed for it and more. Thanks guys!

[VKurtB]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:16 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

So I thank all of you that have replied to this post. The discussion has proved helpful. I payed $15.00 for this coin. The surface is a satiny impaired luster with a light toning and a few very small carbon spots. The details IMO are UNC. The grade is for all intents an purposes somewhere around MS63-64. A 1913 P T1 Buffalo 5c in MS63 / 64 is valued between$65.00 /$90.00. I may have it graded. Then again I may not. Its definitely worth what I payed for it and more. Thanks guys!

For certain the Type 1 1913 Buff does appear in a wide variety of finishes, from a flat sandblast look to pretty darned flashy. I'd love to know the story, and I'd bet it has to do with extended die use, PLUS it was the very first 75/25 Cu/Ni coin with that much depth (relief) in its design. Both the Shield and Liberty nickels were very flat designs. The first Buffs must have really looked odd in the hands of those around in 1913.

Edited June 13, 2023 by VKurtB

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

For certain the Type 1 1913 Buff does appear in a wide variety of finishes, from a flat sandblast look to pretty darned flashy. I'd love to know the story, and I'd bet it has to do with extended die use, PLUS it was the very first 75/25 Cu/Ni coin with that much depth (relief) in its design. Both the Shield and Liberty nickels were very flat designs. The first Buffs must have really looked odd in the hands of those around in 1913.

VK yes this coin was lingering and languishing on eBay for weeks. I had it in my favorites. I have wanted a UNC 1916 Buff for a while. I like you have seen the super flashy blast white coins as well as these satin like finish coins. When my eye looks at the blast white coin I feel I lose a lot of detail in my eye due to flash and refraction. Although its impressive to have a blast white BU gem 1916 coin its not the best to really see the coins details IMO. The coin is small and too much flash makes it just a reflective surface to my eye. I also appreciate a slight show of age on a UNC coin..not wear or marks but a certain patina that really gives a unique eye appeal. This coin won me over and I just bought it because I liked the look of the details and the matte silver color. It was overlooked due to its lack of luster and a small photo which hindered its sale. I took a chance on it. I'll probably have it graded this month and post results. Cheers!

[J P M]

On 6/13/2023 at 5:58 PM, Mike Meenderink said:

VK yes this coin was lingering and languishing on eBay for weeks. I had it in my favorites. I have wanted a UNC 1916 Buff for a while. I like you have seen the super flashy blast white coins as well as these satin like finish coins. When my eye looks at the blast white coin I feel I lose a lot of detail in my eye due to flash and refraction. Although its impressive to have a blast white BU gem 1916 coin its not the best to really see the coins details IMO. The coin is small and too much flash makes it just a reflective surface to my eye. I also appreciate a slight show of age on a UNC coin..not wear or marks but a certain patina that really gives a unique eye appeal. This coin won me over and I just bought it because I liked the look of the details and the matte silver color. It was overlooked due to its lack of luster and a small photo which hindered its sale. I took a chance on it. I'll probably have it graded this month and post results. Cheers!

$15 is not bad . I would not send it in unless I needed it for a set. It will cost more to grade than it is worth. But that is just my cheap nature. 

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:11 PM, J P M said:

$15 is not bad . I would not send it in unless I needed it for a set. It will cost more to grade than it is worth. But that is just my cheap nature. 

So I thank all of you that have replied to this post. The discussion has proved helpful. I payed $15.00 for this coin. The surface is a satiny impaired luster with a light toning and a few very small carbon spots. The details IMO are UNC. The grade is for all intents an purposes somewhere around MS63-64. A 1913 P T1 Buffalo 5c in MS63 / 64 is valued between$65.00 /$90.00. I may have it graded. Then again I may not. Its definitely worth what I payed for it and more. Thanks guys!

[Mike Meenderink]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:11 PM, J P M said:

$15 is not bad . I would not send it in unless I needed it for a set. It will cost more to grade than it is worth. But that is just my cheap nature. 

On another note I have been toying with a type set idea of compiling early date starts and stops 1c 5c 10c 25c 1/2 $ 1 $ so it might get a new suit.

[VKurtB]

The 1916 has its own idiosyncrasy. It is the most cockeyed date ever. Each digit, left to right, is bigger than the last. The 6 is stinking HUGE. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

MS62.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/11/2023 at 8:05 PM, zadok said:

...is that first rectangle a rat or a rooster, i cant keep my corners straight any more....

BLAST FROM THE PAST...

🐓  :  that was a cold shot! ... rat or rooster?

Q.A.  it's okay... the gentleman has showered us with undeserved affection and adulation and paid us the ultimate accolade re our compilation on the west coast... 

Back on Track... a born and bred grader has billed it well within the mint state hierarchy. That implies no wear and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

[Buffalo_Pete]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:47 PM, VKurtB said:

The 1916 has its own idiosyncrasy. It is the most cockeyed date ever. Each digit, left to right, is bigger than the last. The 6 is stinking HUGE. 

That was one of the many ways the Mint tried to solve the rapid date wear.  They never did.  Strengthening the last 2 numbers in the date was kinda like throwing in the towel.  A compromise.  That's why today we see so many partial date Buffs.

The subject coin is well struck, but not FULLY struck.  It lacks most in the hide detail at the bottom near the leg.  Because of the "better" than average strike though, I like it at MS-64.

Pete

[Buffalo Head]

Going by the images I’d say 64.

[EarlyUS.com]

I would have thought the OP coin was something like UNC/stained.

[jesbroken]

On type 1 Buff's with the granite style chiseled look, luster sometimes is not shown in some photos. I bought this 1913 t1 Buff from Angel Dee a few years ago and this was his photo of the coin an MS66. 

Jim