1977 Eisenhower Dollar No Mint Mark On A 40% Silver Planchet 1 1

[sdwcoinz]

As far as I know, this has only ever been found on D Mint Ikes for 1977. But I have one with No Mint Mark. Has anyone ever heard of another one? I just sent it in for grading. 

[Greenstang]

I have never heard of one. What made you come to the conclusion it is 40% silver?

[sdwcoinz]

The edge is all silver with no copper and it weighs 24.59 grams

[sdwcoinz]

[sdwcoinz]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, sdwcoinz said:

Forgive me for the bad photos

[Greenstang]

The photos are sufficient.  
If you have already sent it off, then good luck with the grading.  
Please show us what it graded when it comes back.

[sdwcoinz]

I will most certainly update this when I get it back. I sent it for express grading so it shouldn't take too long. Thank you for your input. 

[VKurtB]

Color me dubious. Why would a 40% blank be on the Philadelphia Mint floor ANY year?

Edited May 23, 2023 by VKurtB

[sdwcoinz]

I have no idea. The only errors I know about are the D Mint that used left over silver planchets from the year before (Bicentennial) but I've never heard of one coming out of Philadelphia..

[Sandon]

   Welcome to the NGC chat board.    

   As you have already sent this coin to a grading service, I assume you don't want our advice. No, I have never heard or read of a 1977 Philadelphia Eisenhower dollar struck on a silver clad planchet. A few 1974-D, 1976-D and 1977-D pieces struck on such wrong planchets are known to exist, which as I recall were found mixed in with normal coins in mint bags or bank rolls.  Your coin is either a major discovery or a counterfeit.  

  The coin appears to have an unusual surface texture for a U.S. mint product of that era and to lack the bagmarks usually found on Eisenhower dollars made for circulation. The blurry and angled photos make it hard to tell for sure. Where and how did you obtain it? 

 

 

[sdwcoinz]

I clearly hope for the major discovery opposed to the counterfeit. I have a hard time believing that someone would counterfeit this particular coin and why would they use silver in a counterfeit? But that my hopeful thinking. I obtained this and 7 others from an auction about 6 months ago. Only recently did I start checking all my dollars after watching a video about the D Mint errors. 

[sdwcoinz]

If this thing is real I'll be hoping for the best at heritage. The too good to be true feelings are hitting me hard. But what choice do I have besides sending it for grading. So that's what I did. 

[sdwcoinz]

If this thing is real I'll be hoping for the best at heritage. The too good to be true feelings are hitting me hard. But what choice do I have besides sending it for grading. So that's what I did. 

[Sandon]

On 5/23/2023 at 2:49 PM, sdwcoinz said:

But what choice do I have besides sending it for grading. So that's what I did. 

   You could have first shown this item to knowledgeable dealers or collectors and/or posted it on this forum or others like it.  After all, how was any coin authenticated before the advent of third-party grading services in the mid-1980s or ANACS and INS photo certificates of authenticity in the 1970s?  I'm concerned that this may be a "fantasy piece" such as those made by Dan Carr t/a Moonlight Mint, who has created items such as "1964-D" Morgan and Peace dollars and "1908-S V.D.B." Lincoln cents by overstriking genuine coins of those types so that the result is of the correct weight and composition. I hope that this isn't the case.

   It would helpful if you could post clear, cropped "head on" photos of each side of this coin like these photos of a normal 1973 Eisenhower dollar:

[Greenstang]

Speculation doesn’t really matter know as the OP has already sent the dime out for verification.  
All we can do know is wait for the results. Hope things turn out well.

[VKurtB]

I’m not a betting man, but if I were, my bet would be on a Chinese fake.

[RWB]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:40 PM, Sandon said:

I'm concerned that this may be a "fantasy piece" such as those made by Dan Carr t/a Moonlight Mint, who has created items such as "1964-D" Morgan and Peace dollars and "1908-S V.D.B." Lincoln cents by overstriking genuine coins of those types so that the result is of the correct weight and composition.

You mean "counterfeit coins."

A legitimate "fantasy piece" would have the legally required word "COPY" on the piece.

[powermad5000]

To answer your question about why, counterfeiters (specifically the Chinese) will literally counterfeit anything and some counterfeiters on occasion do use some silver in the mix of the counterfeit to make the weight and appearance more realistic and less detectable.

As you have already sent this out, I don't think there needs to be an expanded discussion of this piece, so please get back to us with the results.

My only other reservation is you mentioned you watched a video about this and then started checking. I could only guess it was a YouTube video.............(rant supression activated)......

Edited May 24, 2023 by powermad5000
more info

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/24/2023 at 12:04 AM, powermad5000 said:

To answer your question about why, counterfeiters (specifically the Chinese) will literally counterfeit anything and some counterfeiters on occasion do use some silver in the mix of the counterfeit to make the weight and appearance more realistic and less detectable.

Would ANY counterfeiters -- Chinese or not -- make a few, limited copies of a pretty obscure Ike Dollar ?  The profit is in the counterfeit volume, right ?

[VKurtB]

On 5/24/2023 at 12:01 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Would ANY counterfeiters -- Chinese or not -- make a few, limited copies of a pretty obscure Ike Dollar ?  The profit is in the counterfeit volume, right ?

Could be a "demonstration product". "Look how nice and cheap my foundry and press can make these!"

[J P M]

On 5/23/2023 at 2:49 PM, sdwcoinz said:

If this thing is real I'll be hoping for the best at heritage. The too good to be true feelings are hitting me hard. But what choice do I have besides sending it for grading. So that's what I did. 

I wish you luck I can see your point sending it in perhaps if it was posted here first we may have seen something better. It is water under the bridge now but if you look at liberty and the date the devices are crisp and sharp on the clad one. The silver one the 1977 is not right nor the R in liberty and the inside of the ear is not the same. It could be just reflections this photo is not the greatest to make a worthy guess. Again I wish you luck I hate to see anyone get bad grade. 

[sdwcoinz]

I appreciate everyone's input very much. I'm going to see if I took any better pictures of the coin. If so, I'll post them. I can understand why some of you think I should have posted my concerns and question before I sent it in for grading. However, if I'd done that it's very possible that it could have impacted my decision. It's understandable why people will jump to conclusions that it's a counterfeit. I hope you know that I'm just as concerned about that. In my opinion I really had no choice. No matter what anybody says to me the coin looks good enough that I was willing to spend the money to find out for certain. If it's authentic then it will be major, if it's not then it only proves how scary the counterfeit market is these days. My only real question was if anybody had ever heard of another one. I really do appreciate every reply. It just seems like there's always a few people who quickly write it off as fake instead of hoping it's real. I find it fascinating when I read stories of rare coins discovered by ordinary people. It makes it exciting and brings good attention to coin collecting especially for beginners. 

Trust me when I tell you that nobody doubts the legitimacy of this coin than me. I obtained it at an auction, so I don't know the history.  I certainly can't imagine anybody not sending it in just to be sure. If it turns out to be real imagine if I just sat on it and nobody would ever know. I almost tested it for silver, but I didn't want to damage it. So, the only things I could do was check the edge and the weight. I couldn't bring myself to scratch it or put nitric acid on it. Anyway, let me keep my focus on how grateful I am for the input and making me feel welcome on this forum. Clearly, I'm new here and it's been really nice of you all to make me feel that way. I'll see if any of the other photos are better and upload them if so. And when I get the results back, I'll let everyone know. That way if it's counterfeit, all the naysayers can have their moment of glory. 

Thank you again,

Steven

 

[sdwcoinz]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:59 AM, VKurtB said:

Color me dubious. Why would a 40% blank be on the Philadelphia Mint floor ANY year?

So, I found this on the coin references from this site. This might explain how some silver planchets ended up in Philadelphia. It has an expanded explanation when you look up Ike dollars in general. But this is the very last few sentences on the topic. It is some possible explanation. 

" in 1974 at the Philadelphia Mint without a mintmark, but none are currently known to survive. A single silver-clad proof of the second variety has been documented without a mintmark, its place of origin unknown."

[VKurtB]

What were the other coins in that auction lot? That may offer a clue.

[EagleRJO]

I am going to take the under on this one and go with Chinese counterfeit.

It cant be a one-off legit transitional metal error as they either would have needed to use a 40% Ag clad coil by mistake (if it's even conceivable they were in stock) to crank out the incorrect blanks, or had a supply of blanks left over that were used by mistake.

It's not likely that a supply of 40% silver blanks were used to strike transitional errors almost 50 years ago without even one being discovered.  Plus the appearance is just off, and it looks too thick to me.  Adjusting the thickness is how the counterfeiters would compensate for using a non-silver metal while keeping the same diameter.

Did you happen to measure the diameter and thickness before sending it off?

On 5/23/2023 at 2:42 PM, sdwcoinz said:

I have a hard time believing that someone would counterfeit this particular coin and why would they use silver in a counterfeit?

Given the hype and value of a 1977-D 40% Ag transitional error there would be good reason to try and counterfeit that coin, and maybe get it wrong.  Missing a "D" wouldn't surprise me for Chinese counterfeiters with other mistakes they have made, like mismatched sides and missing certain details or lettering.

Also, simply because it is a silver color doesn't mean it is silver.  I think the only outside shot it doesn't come back in a bag would be if it's an "error" from the "graveyard shift" at the mint messing around again finding its way into circulation.

Edited May 28, 2023 by EagleRJO

[RWB]

If a 40% silver blank got into the Denver Mint process flow, upset, and struck, it should look exactly like a normal clad $1 - except for color and absence of copper on the edge.  The photo pair supplied by the OP shows two coins with different basic designs; rim shape of R and other details seem different. The shallow reeding is also troubling -- it should be identical to that on a Denver coin.... Of course, it might not have been struck at D or SF, but at P. Will be interesting to see what NGC has to say.

[VKurtB]

On 5/26/2023 at 6:40 PM, RWB said:

If a 40% silver blank got into the Denver Mint process flow, upset, and struck, it should look exactly like a normal clad $1 - except for color and absence of copper on the edge.  The photo pair supplied by the OP shows two coins with different basic designs; rim shape of R and other details seem different. The shallow reeding is also troubling -- it should be identical to that on a Denver coin.... Of course, it might not have been struck at D or SF, but at P. Will be interesting to see what NGC has to say.

Hmm. Does the spacing between the L and the I in LIBERTY look off to anyone else? This has about a 0.0003% chance of being a legit coin.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:40 PM, RWB said:

If a 40% silver blank got into the Denver Mint process flow, upset, and struck, it should look exactly like a normal clad $1 - except for color and absence of copper on the edge.

What about the "D" mint mark which is missing on the coin if it got into the process at the Denver mint?  Did you mean the Philly mint?

On 5/26/2023 at 7:40 PM, RWB said:

The photo pair supplied by the OP shows two coins with different ... shape of R ...

I think the counterfeiters used the "peg-leg R" associated with the 1977-D [dollar] transitional metal error coin (attached), not the regular Philly clad type R" used there in 1977.

Edited May 31, 2023 by EagleRJO

[RWB]

On 5/28/2023 at 1:29 PM, EagleRJO said:

Did you mean the Philly mint?

Yes, that too.

[Sandon]

@EagleRJO--I hope you realize that you posted a photo of a Kennedy half dollar, not an Eisenhower dollar. Of course, the "Rs" are different!