luster Colonial Copper - Real Luster or cleaned? 1 1

[Dan DJ]

Help!

This is a 1787 Connecticut Colonial copper.  I know this is a Miller 37.6-k.4 and it is a VERY late state die pair and, as is typical of the period, the planchet has many flaws too.

I believe it will grade high, but before I submit it I would like to know if the apparent luster is from a cleaning or if it could be original.  Knowing how I acquired it, it seems unlikely it would have been cleaned, and even if I am wrong, what type of cleaning would cause luster like this?

Any thoughts are appreciated!

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:01 PM, Dan DJ said:

what type of cleaning would cause luster like this?

A jewelers brush and Blue Ribbon would give it a sheen like that.

[Coinbuf]

That is not natural luster, no coin that is so well worn will retain any true luster across the entire surface.   

[JKK]

The idea that such a worn and weathered coin would retain some mint luster is...baffling that anyone could imagine to be so.

[Sandon]

   Original color on a copper coin has a more orange, not pinkish, hue. The coloring doesn't look like luster to me, either.  I've seen many worn copper coins with coloration like this. It can be created either with chemicals or a pencil eraser. The manner in which you obtained it couldn't account for everything it may have experienced in the 236 or so years of its existence, assuming that it is genuine.

[Dan DJ]

On 5/5/2023 at 3:49 PM, Sandon said:

   Original color on a copper coin has a more orange, not pinkish, hue. The coloring doesn't look like luster to me, either.  I've seen many worn copper coins with coloration like this. It can be created either with chemicals or a pencil eraser. The manner in which you obtained it couldn't account for everything it may have experienced in the 236 or so years of its existence, assuming that it is genuine.

My photos don’t represent the color well; it is more of an orange color in sunlight.

You make a really good point about the long history and the various parties that possessed it; I bought it from a farmers estate about 20 years ago in an antique tin can along with about 50 other coins; all of them are from the civil war (many tokens) and as far back as mid-1700s and some of those coins did have original coin luster, but this one does look different than the rest.  Thanks!

[Sandon]

   This 1847 large cent is a good example of a copper coin that has uncirculated details and retains reflective or "cartwheel" luster but was nevertheless "cleaned" or "recolored" as confirmed by NGC's grade of "Uncirculated Details--Cleaned". Note the pinkish color, which is similar to that on your Connecticut copper.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

My guess - cleaned at some point and re-toned.  I would also guess someone applied conditioner/oil to the surface to help preserve it (which isn't a terrible thing when not overdone). 

[RWB]

Dipping a copper coin in acid produces an unnatural color similar to that of copper sheets found at a hardware store, but with a slight pinkish cast.

[l.cutler]

I agree cleaned, but very nice coin nonetheless. These coins can be very deceiving as to what is wear and what is strike.  This obverse is always weak at CONNEC, and the CT of AUCTORI in the late die state.

Edited May 6, 2023 by l.cutler

[Jason Abshier]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:15 PM, Sandon said:

   This 1847 large cent is a good example of a copper coin that has uncirculated details and retains reflective or "cartwheel" luster but was nevertheless "cleaned" or "recolored" as confirmed by NGC's grade of "Uncirculated Details--Cleaned". Note the pinkish color, which is similar to that on your Connecticut copper.

It looks like it been dipped at onetime but naturally toning back … however I never consider dipping a form of cleaning there’s a line between the two subjects . Cleaning to me is when someone take a rag or something else and rubs it across the coin’s surfaces that’s cleaning. Dipping doesn’t do any of that but remove tarnish maybe little of surface but it doesn’t leave traces of hairlines or rubbing … I can see why the grader would detail it…  copper not supposed to be pinkish but to label it “cleaned” I would disagree there…  however the TPG embraced dipped coins millions of Morgan dollars and other silver coinage it blast white screaming it been dipped they never say they are cleaned on the slab 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

@Jason Abshier with silver, I agree.  With copper, I respectfully disagree.  Dipped copper is cleaned copper.  It will leave evidence behind every time.

Disclaimer: I am being critical, because the OP asked for such.  I would like to point out that this is a very interesting colonial with a lot of meat still on the bones.  The color is actually re-toning nicely.  The conditioner that was used also looks good and protects the coin.  However, I didn't want to OP thinking that this coin had original luster and was never "messed with", because... that is not the case.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/6/2023 at 5:30 AM, Jason Abshier said:

… however I never consider dipping a form of cleaning there’s a line between the two subjects

On 5/8/2023 at 10:51 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

... with silver, I agree.  With copper, I respectfully disagree.  Dipped copper is cleaned copper.  It will leave evidence behind every time.

I agree with Jason that dipping and cleaning are separate things, regardless of if the coin is silver or copper, or whether evidence of that is left behind.

Dipping involves submerging the coin in an acid solution to remove tarnish and brighten the coin.  Cleaning involves using solutions and mechanical means to remove dirt and grime from a coin.  Some consider that dipping a coin also cleans it, but that's not really the purpose of dipping a coin, and the PCGS grading code 92 for cleaning specifically excludes that, stating "Dipping (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning ..." for all coin metals including silver and copper.

https://www.pcgs.com/grades#grade92

Edited May 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Jason Abshier]

@The Neophyte Numismatist @EagleRJO
I agree somewhat with dipped copper it looks awkward pinkish color I don’t know who would want to buy a pink looking copper coin even tho grading company will still grade it unless it was a rare coin or something like that even then it still looks awkward however it didn’t remove any metal harshly it only removed toning which in time will still re-tone back to brown …

I have seen coins left in a jars for many years pull couple out of middle of pile or bottom of jar they have what looks like they been dipped at one time or some off odd toning I can’t explain when really it was type of environmental damage 

the OP’s coins might very much be environmental damage from sitting in in a tin can with bunch of other coins humidity and cold over the years hard to tell if it was really dipped or not I’m aiming toward environmental damage,  corrosion , harshly cleaned with a brush or something at one time 

[Dan DJ]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:08 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@The Neophyte Numismatist @EagleRJO
I agree somewhat with dipped copper it looks awkward pinkish color I don’t know who would want to buy a pink looking copper coin even tho grading company will still grade it unless it was a rare coin or something like that even then it still looks awkward however it didn’t remove any metal harshly it only removed toning which in time will still re-tone back to brown …

I have seen coins left in a jars for many years pull couple out of middle of pile or bottom of jar they have what looks like they been dipped at one time or some off odd toning I can’t explain when really it was type of environmental damage 

the OP’s coins might very much be environmental damage from sitting in in a tin can with bunch of other coins humidity and cold over the years hard to tell if it was really dipped or not I’m aiming toward environmental damage,  corrosion , harshly cleaned with a brush or something at one time 

Thanks for the post. This idea of environmental damage would make the most sense to me, because it was in a really old tin can with a ton of random old coins that were never cleaned.

ALL: Despite the pictures, it does not look pink so much as orange; just the sun reflecting off of them changes the color to be lighter; it is really brown when not in the sunlight.  I was trying to show the luster, not the color by putting it in direct sunlight.  Thanks for all the feedback!

[Coinbuf]

On 5/9/2023 at 7:18 AM, Dan DJ said:

Thanks for the post. This idea of environmental damage would make the most sense to me, because it was in a really old tin can with a ton of random old coins that were never cleaned.

ALL: Despite the pictures, it does not look pink so much as orange; just the sun reflecting off of them changes the color to be lighter; it is really brown when not in the sunlight.  I was trying to show the luster, not the color by putting it in direct sunlight.  Thanks for all the feedback!

Just some food for thought, coins that spend time in the ground can be affected by the acidity of the soil.   As you bought this from a farmers estate it is entirely likely that he recovered it from underground.   Nobody is accusing you or anyone else of cleaning the coin, only that it has a look of a dipped coin which it could have obtained from something other than a dip.

Tou have a cool coin and it is amazing to see what is still out there in the wild hiding in tin cans.

[Jason Abshier]

@Dan DJ I wasn’t saying you cleaned that coin or anything … just way it was found , just like @Coinbuf stated coins that spent their time in ground come out looking like that … it’s pretty common for metal detectors to find coins that been buried under dirt for centuries pull it up and harshly clean the crud off it with a brush and soap water …. Usually the coin already suffered pitting , corrosion from being exposed to acid in the dirt … so it possible this farmer or who ever you got this tin of coins from was finding very very old coins in the dirt at one time … still pretty a cool coin to have either way 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Totally agree @Coinbuf!  I was not trying to be "Debbie Downer".  This is a very cool colonial, and frankly... it has a nice/interesting look.  I am not sure how the coin got the "orangey" color, but I do know that it is not natural to the coin.  All that said, it's a nice coin. 

Another topic for another show:  I disagree 100% with anyone who says the chemically dipping copper is not cleaning - it is!  There are two types of cleaning, chemical and mechanical.  This is a chemical cleaning.  It will change the color of your copper to unnatural pink and orange hues.  If one were to poll the EAC club asking questions around dipping copper coins, the group would respond nearly unanimous.  I see lots of problem copper coins in graded holders, so the fact that some cleaned coins are in straight-graded holders is not enough for me to change my opinion.  Copper is not like silver or gold - dipping does more harm than good in almost every case.  

• Distilled Water Rinse = OK
• Acetone Soak = OK
• Harco Blue Ribbon Coin Conditioner on a very soft jewelers brush (carefully) = OK
• Pick out verdigris with a rose thorn (carefully) = OK
• MS70, EZest, etc = NOT OK.

[EagleRJO]

On 5/9/2023 at 11:52 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I disagree 100% with anyone who says the chemically dipping copper is not cleaning - it is!  There are two types of cleaning, chemical and mechanical.  This is a chemical cleaning.  It will change the color of your copper to unnatural pink and orange hues.

We may be disagreeing simply based on semantics.

The traditional "dipping" of a coin, and how I think of that, is very limited to submerging a coin in an acid solution (e.g. Jeweluster) which actually removes some of the surface of a coin, along with any tarnish, color or toning as that is at the outer surface of a coin.  It doesn't change the color of the coin to anything other than the original coin color, possibly an off original color if done incorrectly, and although it may also remove dirt and grime on the coin surface that is not the intent of "dipping" which is to remove some of the metal at a coin surface.

Then there is "cleaning" a coin which is the removal of dirt and grime from a coin using solutions and mechanical means at the surface of the coin.  This can also include submerging a coin in a solution such as acetone or MS70 to remove things like fingerprints, dirt and grime from a coin, which for some methods (not acetone) can also change the color of the coin to the various hues mentioned.

I would not consider that a coin submerged in a solution such as acetone or MS70 has been "dipped".  When PCGS states in their standards that "Dipping (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning ..." I believe they are referring to the traditional "dipping" or submerging of a coin in an acid solution.

Edited May 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Jason Abshier]

@The Neophyte Numismatist just a question I’ve never done it yet but I was always told NOT to even bother dipping gold just like copper don’t even attempt it …. Does gold change color like copper would when dipped ? 
 

however for silver ? I’ll only dip a silver coin that brownish tone kinda ugly or light mottled toned silver coin I’ll dip … I cut my solution light 2:1 ratio … 2 parts of distilled water mixed with 1 part of E-Z-est to dip coins then rinse them in two small containers with warmed distilled water … warm water helps it evaporate faster off the the coin, although I’ll have dip the coin no longer than 10 seconds it takes a few dippings and rinsing in distilled water to get the results I’m looking for… I’ve never had to “full strength” E-Z-est ….
 

However for every raw coin I own I either soak it in Acetone before I put it in a 2x2 holder just common practice to soak of finger oils or contamination off the coin by whoever owned it … as for using a rose thorn ? I’ve heard of museums doing this to clean bronze statues and plaques I wouldn’t attempt do it myself … 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 5/9/2023 at 1:16 PM, Jason Abshier said:

@The Neophyte Numismatist just a question I’ve never done it yet but I was always told NOT to even bother dipping gold just like copper don’t even attempt it …. Does gold change color like copper would when dipped ? 
 

however for silver ? I’ll only dip a silver coin that brownish tone kinda ugly or light mottled toned silver coin I’ll dip … I cut my solution light 2:1 ratio … 2 parts of distilled water mixed with 1 part of E-Z-est to dip coins then rinse them in two small containers with warmed distilled water … warm water helps it evaporate faster off the the coin, although I’ll have dip the coin no longer than 10 seconds it takes a few dippings and rinsing in distilled water to get the results I’m looking for… I’ve never had to “full strength” E-Z-est ….
 

However for every raw coin I own I either soak it in Acetone before I put it in a 2x2 holder just common practice to soak of finger oils or contamination off the coin by whoever owned it … as for using a rose thorn ? I’ve heard of museums doing this to clean bronze statues and plaques I wouldn’t attempt do it myself … 

In all fairness, I am not a gold collector.  I cannot speak educated on the subject and have not dipped gold coins. I do know someone locally who has dipped Saints to remove "ugly orange peel toning" (I love that stuff).  Still, the coin came out nice, and straight graded 66.  Maybe a more serious gold collector has more real-life experience.

I dip silver coins often to practice with coins I don't care about, and rarely with coins I do.  Like you, I use a diluted solution and dip multiple times.  I do like your idea for warm water.  

The rose thorn is reserved for verdigris and crud buildup.  Generally, I soak the coin in acetone to soften the crud/verdigris.  Then, I use a fairly fresh thorn (a little more pliable than a dried thorn) to pick out the debris. After that is done, I rinse it with distilled water and pat dry it.  Then I go over it with some conditioner and a jewelers brush (very lightly, and just a few strokes in mixed directions). 

[VKurtB]

The EAC boys (Early American Coppers) have their own favorite methods of conserving their treasures. Nobody EVER suggested using thiourea/acid “dips” on ANYTHING except silver. If you get bad results using it on gold, copper, or nickel, that’s on you. Nobody told you to do that. It’s silver specific. 

[Dan DJ]

I got this coin back from being graded by NGC and thought I would report back to this helpful forum community.

Indeed the majority of you were correct in that it came back as being cleaned, and it is authentic.  It is a bummer I couldn’t get the Miller designation on the label, because that correlates with the rarity and therefore the value.

The “internet imaging” photo does not capture the true colors or details IMO, but I like how holdering the coin shows the significant rotation of this coin, nearly 45 degrees.  Although I paid for NCS service, I am glad there is no discernible differences, especially since it is designed as cleaned anyway.

Below shows the reverse NGC provided photo:

I think my photos are better; what do you all think?

Thanks everyone!

[Coinbuf]

On 2/20/2024 at 2:38 PM, Dan DJ said:

I got this coin back from being graded by NGC and thought I would report back to this helpful forum community.

Indeed the majority of you were correct in that it came back as being cleaned, and it is authentic.  It is a bummer I couldn’t get the Miller designation on the label, because that correlates with the rarity and therefore the value.

The “internet imaging” photo does not capture the true colors or details IMO, but I like how holdering the coin shows the significant rotation of this coin, nearly 45 degrees.  Although I paid for NCS service, I am glad there is no discernible differences, especially since it is designed as cleaned anyway.

Below shows the reverse NGC provided photo:

 

I think my photos are better; what do you all think?

Thanks everyone!

It is entirely possible that NCS after evaluating your coin did not perform any conservation service on your coin.   If after their review it is determined that a coin cannot be "helped" and the best option is to do nothing, that is the choice they go with.    Did you pay the attribution fee to have the Miller designation added, and does NGC even offer the service of adding a Miller designation?   I'm not an early copper guy so I am not familiar with the NGC policies pertaining to Miller designations.   But if you did not indicate that you wanted that designation (again assuming that it can be added) and pay the extra fee it would not be put on the label NGC will not automatically add all varieties/designations.

[Dan DJ]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:26 PM, Coinbuf said:

It is entirely possible that NCS after evaluating your coin did not perform any conservation service on your coin.   If after their review it is determined that a coin cannot be "helped" and the best option is to do nothing, that is the choice they go with.    Did you pay the attribution fee to have the Miller designation added, and does NGC even offer the service of adding a Miller designation?   I'm not an early copper guy so I am not familiar with the NGC policies pertaining to Miller designations.   But if you did not indicate that you wanted that designation (again assuming that it can be added) and pay the extra fee it would not be put on the label NGC will not automatically add all varieties/designations.

From another post, it was determined that the Miller designation is not offered for the labels.

Thanks!