Central States inventory 0

[powermad5000]

@VKurtB Amen brother! I do exactly the same thing (although I have made some self grading errors). Since I started out so young in this hobby, there were no slabs, and I bought raw coins like everyone else. It has not changed for me over all these years. I still buy 99% of my coins raw and submit them. I will purchase a slabbed coin when I do find one that is for sale severely underpriced by the seller (for whatever reason), but I enjoy the process of inspecting and self grading raw coins and finding something good that maybe the seller has either decided to let it go for the first offer, or just sells coins in whatever way they do. One story I have from Central States about five years ago, I stopped at a table with a seller from Iowa. As I am still trying to put together a set of Franklin Halves in minimum MS 64 FBL, I started taking a look at his inventory. He noticed right away that I wasn't even looking at the obverse first, but rather I was flipping the coins over to check for FBL. He asked, "Are you looking for only ones with full bell lines?" When I said yes, he replied "I don't care about that. I just price them as I see them." My brain made a ringing bell sound like I won on the Price is Right and I told him I would be spending a lot of time in my chair! I bought about a dozen and they all graded out good except for one.

Finding quality raw coins brings me joy!

[VKurtB]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:16 PM, powermad5000 said:

@VKurtB Amen brother! I do exactly the same thing (although I have made some self grading errors). Since I started out so young in this hobby, there were no slabs, and I bought raw coins like everyone else. It has not changed for me over all these years. I still buy 99% of my coins raw and submit them. I will purchase a slabbed coin when I do find one that is for sale severely underpriced by the seller (for whatever reason), but I enjoy the process of inspecting and self grading raw coins and finding something good that maybe the seller has either decided to let it go for the first offer, or just sells coins in whatever way they do. One story I have from Central States about five years ago, I stopped at a table with a seller from Iowa. As I am still trying to put together a set of Franklin Halves in minimum MS 64 FBL, I started taking a look at his inventory. He noticed right away that I wasn't even looking at the obverse first, but rather I was flipping the coins over to check for FBL. He asked, "Are you looking for only ones with full bell lines?" When I said yes, he replied "I don't care about that. I just price them as I see them." My brain made a ringing bell sound like I won on the Price is Right and I told him I would be spending a lot of time in my chair! I bought about a dozen and they all graded out good except for one.

Finding quality raw coins brings me joy!

In this hobby, dopeyness of all kinds abounds, even among dealers. If there is only one message I wish I could cram into beginners’ craniums, it is that. Most people in this field are dopes. EXTREME amounts of weeding out the dopes in an absolute necessity. 

[Teddy R]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:12 PM, VKurtB said:

I never go to ANY major coin show primarily to shop. I go to live auctions for that. I go to major coin shows to learn, exhibit, judge exhibits, interact, participate in committee and board meetings, attend talks, and GIVE talks. Also, I work FOR the ANA at ANA shows, and work the ANA’s table(s) at non-ANA shows. I also buy at some minuscule to regional shows, but nearly never at major shows.

Yep, I went to buy but I sure ended up learning. 

On 5/5/2023 at 9:48 AM, VKurtB said:

So I guess that CSNS is now the “host organism” for the parasite known as the PNG pre-show. The ANA used to suffer from the ravages of that blood-sucker. Careful excision of it worked wonders. Some small parasitic infection remains in the minds of former participants each August. I’m not quite certain if it’s bacterial, viral, or perhaps a spirochete. It’s nasty any way you look at it. 

Yes and after reading your post and doing some homework it appears PNG day is what cleaned the show out before the general public was allowed in. It appears the dealer that posted their purchases spent 50 - 100k. If several dealers did the same, we have our answer about the lack of inventory as mentioned by the OP

[Teddy R]

On 5/6/2023 at 3:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

I did see one dealer review as well and apparently they had a "low buck" section upstairs which I was unaware of. Every prior year the reason I did not go upstairs was because it was all Heritage auctions stuff and big money coins (I'm not a fan of 20% buyers premiums and I also go to the show to buy raw coins). Perhaps I missed a lot of inventory upstairs as well. But I agree @VKurtB. I noticed all of the PNG stuff going on and that wasn't like that in years past either.

You didn't miss anything. I did buy one coin but the upstairs was cleaned out also.

[Teddy R]

On 4/30/2023 at 5:17 PM, Teddy R said:

I was a little disappointed. Granted, the items I am looking for are tough pieces, not impossible but not on every table either. I was told by more than one Dealer that the items I inquired about went fast to other Dealers. I was there Thursday but I guess you need to do the early bird thing.

That being said, I'll go again next year. I did pick up 5 coins.

After further review, I will not attend this show again.

This was my first big show. I thought I would be taking my collecting to the next level, lesson learned.

I can only afford to travel to one big show a year. I'm thinking I may do the FUN show next year. No PNG day and early bird is only $100 as compared to $385 at CSNS.

[VKurtB]

On 5/7/2023 at 5:00 PM, Teddy R said:

After further review, I will not attend this show again.

This was my first big show. I thought I would be taking my collecting to the next level, lesson learned.

I can only afford to travel to one big show a year. I'm thinking I may do the FUN show next year. No PNG day and early bird is only $100 as compared to $385 at CSNS.

CSNS management is presently involved in a power struggle. Just as the entire hobby is in a struggle between dealer desires and collector desires, that battle is presently “on steroids” at Central States. Even the President and Vice President are at odds. Let this pass and CSNS might regain some appeal. Right now, dealers hold sway at CSNS.  I’m VERRRRRRY involved in seeing that is NOT the case going forward at the ANA and its shows. 

[Teddy R]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:45 PM, VKurtB said:

CSNS management is presently involved in a power struggle. Just as the entire hobby is in a struggle between dealer desires and collector desires, that battle is presently “on steroids” at Central States. Even the President and Vice President are at odds. Let this pass and CSNS might regain some appeal. Right now, dealers hold sway at CSNS.  I’m VERRRRRRY involved in seeing that is NOT the case going forward at the ANA and its shows. 

Interesting.

Thanks for considering the collector, your efforts are appreciated.

[Coinbuf]

On 5/7/2023 at 3:00 PM, Teddy R said:

After further review, I will not attend this show again.

This was my first big show. I thought I would be taking my collecting to the next level, lesson learned.

I can only afford to travel to one big show a year. I'm thinking I may do the FUN show next year. No PNG day and early bird is only $100 as compared to $385 at CSNS.

Not to burst your bubble, but dealers buy from each other at every show before the public has an opportunity to step in the show, that includes FUN.   A lot of this action happens on dealer setup day, having the early bird access helps but this dealer to dealer buying has been the norm for ever.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from going to FUN, I have never been myself but from talking to other collectors the JAN FUN show seems to be the biggest show of the year.   So even with all that dealer buying you may still have opportunities that you did not have at CSNS.   If I were going to travel for only one show a year, that is the show I would put at the top of my list to see.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/9/2023 at 12:09 PM, Coinbuf said:

Not to burst your bubble, but dealers buy from each other at every show before the public has an opportunity to step in the show, that includes FUN.   A lot of this action happens on dealer setup day, having the early bird access helps but this dealer to dealer buying has been the norm for ever. I'm not trying to dissuade you from going to FUN, I have never been myself but from talking to other collectors the JAN FUN show seems to be the biggest show of the year.   So even with all that dealer buying you may still have opportunities that you did not have at CSNS.   If I were going to travel for only one show a year, that is the show I would put at the top of my list to see.

Agreed....especially if you are from a cold Northern or similar area of the country.  Going to Florida in January is cool, much better than Summer FUN which is in the summer.

Yeah, FUN 2020 is where I learned that 80% of the dealer's business/volumes can be done on Setup Day or the hours before Day 1 of the show opening.  I still don't understand EXACTLY how or why they are willing to sell below retail to a fellow dealer UNLESS they are desparate for ca$$$h and maybe have a nice profit on the coin even if they sell below retail.  

Because if I am a dealer...and I have coins to sell....and I bought them recently at only a slight discount to the current retail FMV....how the heck do I justify selling it at a retail discount to another dealer unless I overextended myself and need ca$$$h right away (why you wouldn't wait until the end of the show to see if you could sell it at the higher retail price I don't know).

Anyway, I guess that's why I never was a businessman. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/7/2023 at 6:00 PM, Teddy R said:

After further review, I will not attend this show again.  This was my first big show. I thought I would be taking my collecting to the next level, lesson learned. I can only afford to travel to one big show a year. I'm thinking I may do the FUN show next year. No PNG day and early bird is only $100 as compared to $385 at CSNS.

Hopefully a bunch of us can all goto and meet at FUN 2024. 

[Teddy R]

On 5/9/2023 at 12:09 PM, Coinbuf said:

Not to burst your bubble, but dealers buy from each other at every show before the public has an opportunity to step in the show, that includes FUN.   A lot of this action happens on dealer setup day, having the early bird access helps but this dealer to dealer buying has been the norm for ever.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from going to FUN, I have never been myself but from talking to other collectors the JAN FUN show seems to be the biggest show of the year.   So even with all that dealer buying you may still have opportunities that you did not have at CSNS.   If I were going to travel for only one show a year, that is the show I would put at the top of my list to see.

My bubble is intact. As a 40 plus year veteran of other types of collectibles shows I'm well aware of dealer to dealer transactions.

As I stated in an earlier post, no PNG day and a reasonably priced early bird pass at FUN may not stack the deck in my favor but it can't hurt.

The big time dealers had way too much time to clean the place out at CSNS and that was confirmed by dealer's I spoke to and posts on social media.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Teddy R

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/9/2023 at 3:25 PM, Teddy R said:

My bubble is intact. As a 40 plus year veteran of other types of collectibles shows I'm well aware of dealer to dealer transactions.  As I stated in an earlier post, no PNG day and a reasonably priced early bird pass at FUN may not stack the deck in my favor but it can't hurt. The big time dealers had way too much time to clean the place out at CSNS and that was confirmed by Dealer's I spoke to and posts on social media.

I LOVED FUN 2020....my first real coin show outside of local ones I drove 45 minutes or less to. 

Met folks from these and other forums....it was in the 20's or 30's in NY when I left for Orlando.....60's or 70's when I got there....took the Amtrak train....21 hours or so....fun, never took a train for that much travel....stayed at budget Rosen Inn, should have been closer to the show and the other guys attending (won't make that mistake again)....easier to hang out during down times....lots of restaurants in the area near OCCC.

Really want to go back in 2024. 

[VKurtB]

For me, most major shows are the same distance away, 700-750 miles.

Pittsburgh, Orlando, Chicago, Schamburg, Oklahoma City - all in the 700-750 range, a good solid day behind the wheel.

I'll drive to all of them. 1400 miles to Colorado Springs. I'll fly to that, but only because I got a good fare. My "local" shows, Dalton, GA and Chattanooga, are just a couple of hours away.

[World Colonial]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:50 PM, J P M said:

I love the coins I see on Heritage but not only is there a 20% fee but before you can even bid there is a $30 BP fee. I just can't do that. 

In US material, what exactly does Heritage offer that can't be found (in multiple) somewhere else?

I've bought low-priced coins (below $100) from Heritage several times, but it was world coins which are difficult to find elsewhere.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:46 PM, World Colonial said:

In US material, what exactly does Heritage offer that can't be found (in multiple) somewhere else?

I've bought low-priced coins (below $100) from Heritage several times, but it was world coins which are difficult to find elsewhere.

For a difficult coin or a common one in JUST the right condition you want....you have ease of buying which is definitely worth something.

[World Colonial]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For a difficult coin or a common one in JUST the right condition you want....you have ease of buying which is definitely worth something.

Yes, maybe some US modern in a particular grade (TPG label) as a "special designation strike": FB/FT FDR dime or FS nickel.  

Other than that, I can't think of even one US coin where this applies where the minimum Heritage buyer's fee is a factor. 

We're talking sub-$100 coins or maybe slightly above it.  US coins are too common where it cannot be found elsewhere, almost always on short notice or right now.

Just buy it on eBay.

[J P M]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:05 PM, World Colonial said:

Yes, maybe some US modern in a particular grade (TPG label) as a "special designation strike": FB/FT FDR dime or FS nickel.  

Other than that, I can't think of even one US coin where this applies where the minimum Heritage buyer's fee is a factor. 

We're talking sub-$100 coins or maybe slightly above it.  US coins are too common where it cannot be found elsewhere, almost always on short notice or right now.

Just buy it on eBay.

I pass on many coins because I can't pick them up at 30% to 50% of FMV. Why would I want to pay $30 just to bid on a $100 coin when that is the amount I want to pay for it to begin with. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by J P M

[World Colonial]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:29 PM, J P M said:

I pass on many coins because I can't pick them up at 30% to 50% of FMV. Why would I want to pay $30 just to bid on a $100 coin when that is the amount I want to pay for it to begin with. 

I know it can be bought elsewhere for less.  That's my point.

I have no idea why anyone consigns coins in this price range to Heritage, US or otherwise.  I've bought coins from them when the minimum fee was lower where the fee was still almost as much as the hammer.

[GoldFinger1969]

Eventually, I want to buy an MS-67 Saint-Gaudens coin, probably a 1908 NM if I want to get the least expensive.  Regardless, whether I pay $7K or $10K....I want it to be a "special" coin that really looks nice for that kind of $$$.   

Sure, if the retail price for an MS-67 1908 NM is $7,000 I don't want to pay $8,000 for a run-of-the-mill.  However, I might be willing to pay $7,500 for a REALLY NICE coin that looks spectacular.  And if I can find that by clicking on a mouse and not having to drive to a dozen shows or coin shops or hop to FUN or another big coin show, it's worth a few extra hundred dollars to me.

But maybe that's just me.

Edited May 19, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[J P M]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Eventually, I want to buy an MS-67 Saint-Gaudens coin, probably a 1908 NM if I want to get the least expensive.  Regardless, whether I pay $7K or $10K....I want it to be a "special" coin that really looks nice for that kind of $$$.   

Sure, if the retail price for an MS-67 1908 NM is $7,000 I don't want to pay $8,000 for a run-of-the-mill.  However, I might be willing to pay $7,500 for a REALLY NICE coin that looks spectacular.  And if I can find that by clicking on a mouse and not having to drive to a dozen shows or coin shops or hop to FUN or another big coin show, it's worth a few extra hundred dollars to me.

But maybe that's just me.

I am not saying they do not have great looking coins or a large selection. Now for me, I just don't want to pay $30 up front and then 20% at the hammer and then shipping. It is to much extra for a low price coin. Some coins in my sets are worth under  $30 so it is a big loss after all the extra charges. Other on line houses charge $5 up front at first and then 12% and shipping. I can work with that. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:50 AM, J P M said:

I am not saying they do not have great looking coins or a large selection. Now for me, I just don't want to pay $30 up front and then 20% at the hammer and then shipping. It is to much extra for a low price coin. Some coins in my sets are worth under  $30 so it is a big loss after all the extra charges. Other on line houses charge $5 up front at first and then 12% and shipping. I can work with that. 

Yes, I can see this JPM.  I guess for me it's different because I would be looking at a 4-figure (maybe 5-figure) coin.  Of course, that's some time off given the state of my bank account. 

I actually have bought very few coins off of HA....I've bought lots of currency and bills...those are tougher to find, which jibes with some of the posts here in using the onlines for more difficult stuff to buy.

[World Colonial]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:13 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I actually have bought very few coins off of HA....I've bought lots of currency and bills...those are tougher to find, which jibes with some of the posts here in using the onlines for more difficult stuff to buy.

If the coins I collect were readily available, I'd usually buy it at a local dealer or show, depending upon price.

I've bought a few coins at shows, but don't bother with local dealers for what I buy.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:33 PM, World Colonial said:

If the coins I collect were readily available, I'd usually buy it at a local dealer or show, depending upon price.

I've bought a few coins at shows, but don't bother with local dealers for what I buy.

I bought probably 10-12 coins at FUN 2020, granted, it was my first time there and first really big coin show so I had lots of pent-up demand.  But I probably spent low-5 figures.

 

[VKurtB]

To me, Heritage is ALWAYS a non-starter. If you have the bucks to be shopping at Heritage, you're well-healed and should never gripe about costs. I have bought a few from Stacks-Bowers, but they were either non-photographed lots or the photos looked like garbage, and I went to look at the coins in person and found they were just awful photos of good coins. I have too much experience in the photo industry. I. DO. NOT. TRUST. COIN. PHOTOS. Full stop.

Edited May 19, 2023 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I bought probably 10-12 coins at FUN 2020, granted, it was my first time there and first really big coin show so I had lots of pent-up demand.  But I probably spent low-5 figures.

 

I bought one coin at the 2020 ANA in ATL for about $700.  That's the most I've spent at any show.  Usually, it's about $300 but it's low-priced coins for my secondary collections.  2020 ANA was the first time I ever saw anything at a show in my primary I wanted to buy.

Your posts indicate you buy "investment" coinage which differs from me. If I bought what you do, I'd have a somewhat different philosophy.

Since I buy "collector" coins, I don't "save up" and almost never dip into my savings.  Once I save money, it stays there.  I've dipped into savings a few times recently to avoid missing out on coins I really wanted, but otherwise, I pay myself first and only use what's left over.  This means I have to meet my savings target for the year.  I may not meet it, but it's not going to be because I went on a coin buying "binge". 

I also don't buy "big ticket" coins either.  I may do that after I retire when I don't have to work for the money, but I'm not about to forgo saving for months to buy a coin. 

[World Colonial]

On 5/19/2023 at 4:54 PM, VKurtB said:

To me, Heritage is ALWAYS a non-starter. If you have the bucks to be shopping at Heritage, you're well-healed and should never gripe about costs. I have bought a few from Stacks-Bowers, but they were either non-photographed lots or the photos looked like garbage, and I went to look at the coins in person and found they were just awful photos of good coins. I have too much experience in the photo industry. I. DO. NOT. TRUST. COIN. PHOTOS. Full stop.

You seem to have a different definition of "well heeled".

I've spent $12K since I first bought from them in 2006 on 42 lots (three multi-coin).  Most were somewhat over $100 or less but these aren't available elsewhere hardly ever.

In my experience, the coins are usually somewhat nicer than the picture.  I don't recall buying a coin from them which was noticeably worse.

I've bought far fewer coins from Stacks but the amount I've spent isn't much less.  Heritage hasn't offered much in my series in recent years.

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:36 PM, World Colonial said:

You seem to have a different definition of "well heeled".

I've spent $12K since I first bought from them in 2006 on 42 lots (three multi-coin).  Most were somewhat over $100 or less but these aren't available elsewhere hardly ever.

In my experience, the coins are usually somewhat nicer than the picture.  I don't recall buying a coin from them which was noticeably worse.

I've bought far fewer coins from Stacks but the amount I've spent isn't much less.  Heritage hasn't offered much in my series in recent years.

Have you looked into CNG? When it comes to older world coins, I've spent more with CNG than Heritage, Stacks-Bowers, and GreatCollections COMBINED. And I've picked up lots IN PERSON, too. Lancaster, PA. Perhaps in London this autumn.

Edited May 19, 2023 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

CSNS is a close drive for me. About an hour. I've gone there almost a decade now to buy raw coins. I typically am able to shop out quality raw coins on a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of value. Anytime I can buy a coin worth twice what I paid for it is good. One year, I did score a pair of MS 65 FBL Franklins for $12 and $18 respectively so that worked out very well. I have made out on some Peace and Morgans as well as a handful of Washingtons and Mercs. This year, I ventured into the $100-$250 price range on some raw Morgans to fill some holes in the set so I will have to wait to see how those pan out. It was just a letdown that there wasn't much raw worth buying (and I did look but found a lot of cleaned specimens or overpriced flips).

I went to the World's Fair of Money for the first time last year, and I didn't make it through the whole show because I had a mission and completed it, but I don't remember seeing much in the raw. It seemed like a slab fest. I will attend again this year and spend more time walking as I will have no specific goal in mind to tend to during the visit.

I suppose I would entertain looking at some of the big auction house coins but none of my sets are at that point that I need those last few that might only be found there (plus I am so cheap and will still growl at the buyers premiums).

I am going to be very interested in the return box of the roughly 38 coins I submitted at CSNS. This is also the first time I got an email about an extra charge for a tier upgrade for a coin that I apparently severely undergraded as they felt it to be in the next upper grading tier. The box opening is going to be more exciting than the CSNS show...LOL!

[VKurtB]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:41 PM, powermad5000 said:

CSNS is a close drive for me. About an hour. I've gone there almost a decade now to buy raw coins. I typically am able to shop out quality raw coins on a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio of value. Anytime I can buy a coin worth twice what I paid for it is good. One year, I did score a pair of MS 65 FBL Franklins for $12 and $18 respectively so that worked out very well. I have made out on some Peace and Morgans as well as a handful of Washingtons and Mercs. This year, I ventured into the $100-$250 price range on some raw Morgans to fill some holes in the set so I will have to wait to see how those pan out. It was just a letdown that there wasn't much raw worth buying (and I did look but found a lot of cleaned specimens or overpriced flips).

I went to the World's Fair of Money for the first time last year, and I didn't make it through the whole show because I had a mission and completed it, but I don't remember seeing much in the raw. It seemed like a slab fest. I will attend again this year and spend more time walking as I will have no specific goal in mind to tend to during the visit.

I suppose I would entertain looking at some of the big auction house coins but none of my sets are at that point that I need those last few that might only be found there (plus I am so cheap and will still growl at the buyers premiums).

I am going to be very interested in the return box of the roughly 38 coins I submitted at CSNS. This is also the first time I got an email about an extra charge for a tier upgrade for a coin that I apparently severely undergraded as they felt it to be in the next upper grading tier. The box opening is going to be more exciting than the CSNS show...LOL!

I have never had any trouble finding raw material at any ANA show, BUT... it is in a fundamentally different part of the bourse. The raw material is in the "cheaper seats" primarily, and not in the area you first encounter when you walk in. THAT is a slab fest, for certain. You have to get to the sides and the back of the hall. ANA is THE MOST EXPENSIVE TABLE RATE in numismatics, bar none. And that includes Long Beach, CSNS, and F.U.N.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/20/2023 at 9:29 AM, VKurtB said:

I have never had any trouble finding raw material at any ANA show, BUT... it is in a fundamentally different part of the bourse. The raw material is in the "cheaper seats" primarily, and not in the area you first encounter when you walk in. THAT is a slab fest, for certain. You have to get to the sides and the back of the hall. ANA is THE MOST EXPENSIVE TABLE RATE in numismatics, bar none. And that includes Long Beach, CSNS, and F.U.N.

What DOES a table go for there ?  Do you get a discount if you stay 3-4 days instead of 1 or 2 ?