1812 Nova Scotia 1/2 Penny - What do you see going on here? 1 1

[Dascher]

Hello everyone and I hope y'all had a nice holiday weekend recently. I am curious what do you see when you look at the close ups of the obverse markings on this 1812 Nova Scotia Half Penny?

Obviously it's a loaded question because I read on numista.com ( https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3194.html ) that these particular pieces were known have been struck or cast by Thomas Halliday of Birmingham, England and some specimens were struck over either "Guppy" or "Bristol" halfpennies. I sent this in for certification with the $18 Mint Errorr option because I found it hard to believe that that the exactness of these markings came from some post-minting damage but rather during a faulty mint given their clearness and obvious doubling of some sort. It just seems too inconceivable that these obverse markings are anything but a mint error.

Well, of course, the NGC graders had a different opinion and simply graded it as a damaged XF Details coin. I am not contesting the XF grading, but I am thinking about contesting this as a Details / damaged coin and not a true mint error.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance - JFD

[Fenntucky Mike]

Looks like it was counterstamped/damaged. I agree with the Details grade.

This is the Bristol Half, I think. Image from Numista.

[Dascher]

On 4/12/2023 at 12:23 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Looks like it was counterstamped/damaged. I agree with the Details grade.

This is the Bristol Half, I think. Image from Numista.

Thanks Fenn! I was completely unfamiliar with the entire concept of counterstamping, but I am beginning to think you nailed it. I guess the question now is whether and how I can maximize value out of this rare, old coin if this is the case and it is not just a "normal" circulation damage.

[Fenntucky Mike]

The coin, being an 1812, means some would have been struck over Guppy half pennies and not Bristol half pennies. At least according to Numista.

Image from coinarchives.com.

 

 

@Dascher I don't know what an undamaged Nova Scotia would go for in XF condition, but most likely the value has been reduced significantly. One way to increase the value would be to identify the counterstamp, who did it, was it for a shop, what is it advertising, etc.. Of course that's assuming it is something more than an individual having fun with a punch set, even if you are able to identify it chances are the increase in value would be minimal.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Fenntucky Mike
Wrong image posted

[Dascher]

On 4/12/2023 at 1:13 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

The coin, being an 1812, means some would have been struck over Guppy half pennies and not Bristol half pennies. At least according to Numista.

Image from coinarchives.com.

 

 

@Dascher I don't know what an undamaged Nova Scotia would go for in XF condition, but most likely the value has been reduced significantly. One way to increase the value would be to identify the counterstamp, who did it, was it for a shop, what is it advertising, etc.. Of course that's assuming it is something more than an individual having fun with a punch set, even if you are able to identify it chances are the increase in value would be minimal.

Good advice, yet again, thanks. I can raise to that challenge and live with it if I can't. 

[EagleRJO]

You may be confusing overstrikes and counterstamps.

On 4/12/2023 at 12:24 PM, Dascher said:

... these particular pieces were known have been struck or cast by Thomas Halliday of Birmingham, England and some specimens were struck over either "Guppy" or "Bristol" halfpennies.

Those would be "overstrikes", where an old coin is placed in a coining press at a mint and struck with new dies producing a different coin.  This is discussed at Numista for some of the 1812 Canadian Half Penny Trade and Navigation Tokens as you referenced (following link and attached photo).

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3194.html

On 4/12/2023 at 1:46 PM, Dascher said:

I found it hard to believe that that the exactness of these markings came from some post-minting damage but rather during a faulty mint given their clearness and obvious doubling of some sort ... just seems too inconceivable that these obverse markings are anything but a mint error.

The marks you are referencing, as highlighted on the attached pic, are "counterstamps".  These are impressions added to a coin after it leaves the mint.  Counterstamps are almost always considered damage by the TPGs, with few exceptions such as chop marks on Trade Dollars.

Edited April 14, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Dascher]

On 4/12/2023 at 4:10 PM, EagleRJO said:

You may be confusing overstrikes and counterstamps.

Those would be "overstrikes", where an old coin is placed in a coining press at a mint and struck with new dies producing a different coin.

The marks you are referencing, as highlighted on the attached pic, are "counterstamps".  These are impressions added to a coin after it leaves the mint.  Counterstamps are almost always considered damage by the TPGs, with few exceptions such as chop marks on Trade Dollars.

OK, thanks, I'm with you now that I know counterstamps are an actual thing. Any idea what has been counterstampped on this coin and/or why? Or perhaps is there is a 3rd party expert Canadian source to find out more? I've looked all over to no avail.

[powermad5000]

Those are definitely counterstamps. Some counterstamps were to an "old" way to see if a coin was legitimate metal (typically this was done on silver though). Other counterstamps were ways of merchants to advertise a business or event. And some counterstamps were just people messing around with coins. Modern counterstamps are usually a marketing gimmick. Counterstamps could be a letter or a number or a random symbol. Whatever was counterstamped on your coin in the area you have red circled was not fully impressed into it so it is hard to tell whether or not it even says anything, or it could just be a string of random symbols.

As an FYI Eagle, me on my secondary geekdom with Trade Dollars, NGC still sees them as damage and will give a Trade Dollar, XX Details - Chopmarks

[Just Bob]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:01 AM, Dascher said:

 Any idea what has been counterstampped on this coin and/or why? 

The last two letters appear to be "NS." The beginning letter looks like an "S" also, and there appear to be an "O" and maybe an "L" in there, too.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:14 PM, powermad5000 said:

As an FYI Eagle, me on my secondary geekdom with Trade Dollars, NGC still sees them as damage and will give a Trade Dollar, XX Details - Chopmarks

NGC needs to get with the times.  PCGS has been straight grading Trade Dollars with Chop Marks as a variety since 2003.

https://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-Now-Designates-Chop-Marked-Trade-Dollars

I really like the chopped Trade Dollars because I think it gives them character and history, like the attached example from my collection which I can imagine being handed to a merchant at an Asian port for some silk and other goods.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:01 PM, Dascher said:

Any idea what has been counterstampped on this coin and/or why?

I'm not familiar with those coins or counterstamps, but it is a very distinctive and repetitive pattern so it may be something similar to chop marks by merchants.

[Just Bob]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:06 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm not familiar with those coins or counterstamps, but it is a very distinctive and repetitive pattern so it may be something similar to chop marks by merchants.

What you are seeing is the tops of letters. If you look at the picture with the red oval drawn on it, you can see an "S" to the right of the oval, with an "N" just to the left of the "S." There are other letters to the left of these. This appears to be the same punch as was used four times on the area in red, but turned 90 degrees. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Just Bob