Should I have this 1910-S St. Gaudens coin graded by NGC? 1 1

[Walter Holmes]

I purchased this St Gaudens Double Eagle yesterday at a coin show. Not sure if I should send it in to be graded. Your thoughts. Dealer graded as XF. 

[GoldFinger1969]

The 1910-S is a common Saint.  It ranks usually in the low-30's out of all the 53 Saints in overall rarity and in Mint State rarity.  

Roger's book has it with a Production Rank of 39 and Survival Rank of 32.  There are about 5,000 circulated, AU, and MS60-62 coins; 4,000 MS63-64's; 215 MS65-66's; and 2 MS67-68's.

Certainly, in that grade, you'd just be buying an expensive protective holder.  Maybe it's a coin you want to be able to touch and feel without regard to damage since it's already in the XF class.

Edited April 9, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[powermad5000]

Price guide values for this coin only go up $125 from XF to the lowest UNC (60), so submission would not be any real "advantage" monetarily as it would in the case of a coin where the difference between say VF and XF could be a $750-$1250 increase in value. The question is do you want to spend extra money to encase your roughly $2,000 coin? I think with the basically steady value of this coin despite the numerical grade makes this a matter of your own personal preference.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2023 at 2:55 AM, powermad5000 said:

Price guide values for this coin only go up $125 from XF to the lowest UNC (60), so submission would not be any real "advantage" monetarily as it would in the case of a coin where the difference between say VF and XF could be a $750-$1250 increase in value. The question is do you want to spend extra money to encase your roughly $2,000 coin? I think with the basically steady value of this coin despite the numerical grade makes this a matter of your own personal preference.

 

Me personally, I want a coin like this -- or a more widely-available one -- in a nice velvet pouch so I can have people I show my coins to what it actually feels like in hand. 

[Sandon]

   As common date St. Gaudens double eagles are now bullion-related items in all circulated and lower mint state grades, a grading opinion is irrelevant. (I would also grade this one XF, but I think it would likely grade AU 50-53 at a grading service.) However, considering its value, it might be worth submitting to verify its authenticity.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:24 PM, Sandon said:

As common date St. Gaudens double eagles are now bullion-related items in all circulated and lower mint state grades, a grading opinion is irrelevant. (I would also grade this one XF, but I think it would likely grade AU 50-53 at a grading service.) However, considering its value, it might be worth submitting to verify its authenticity.

You think it can grade AU, Sandon ?  Very worn...clearly worn, whatever...and I know high-XF grades and low-AU's are almost interchangeable. 

So you would consider it being graded just to be 100% sure it's authentic ?  I think you can probably get a verbal confirmation from a reputable dealer or collector at no charge, assuming his seller wasn't one such expert.  

Edited April 9, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Authenticity is the only reason to send it to a TPG. If the OP must do this, use ANACS. As others have mentioned, it is not really a collectors' coin -- it's value is only in bullion at about $1,700.

[EagleRJO]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I want a coin like this ... so I can have people I show my coins to what it actually feels like in hand. 

Thats the way I like all of my coins, including the gold ones. 

It's a common gold bullion coin.  Just put the coin in your own easy-open holder like the attached.  You can also do a basic check by accurately measuring dimensions, as well as the weight to check approximate density or specific gravity.

Edited April 9, 2023 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2023 at 1:18 PM, RWB said:

it's value is only in bullion at about $1,700.

$1,935.....don't forget about the post-Silicon Valley Bank rally in gold !!  

[EagleRJO]

For an XF grade 1910-S DE it should be worth right around gold spot at $2,002 today.

[Sandon]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You think it can grade AU, Sandon ? 

   Unfortunately, yes. This 1910-S most closely matches the St. Gaudens example for the AU 50 grade on PCGS Photograde.

   I recently had ten uncertified gold coins that I bought between 1987 and 2002 graded by NGC for registry set purposes. A 1915 quarter eagle that a dealer had invoiced to me as an "AU+" in 1988 and for which ANACS had issued me a photo certificate reasonably graded "AU55/55" shortly thereafter now resides in an NGC holder graded "MS 63". (I intend to do a topic about that one.) An 1863-S double eagle that I bought at a 1995 Bowers and Merena auction catalogued as "EF-45" came back in an AU 53 holder. An 1899 double eagle for which ANACS issued me a photo certificate in 1987 as "AU 50/50" came back AU 55. Several other pieces came back graded AU 58, including a 1903-O eagle that I described as "Ch. EF" in my records and a heavily abraded and bagmarked 1876 double eagle.  I don't think that the grading descriptions in the ANA grading guide have changed much since the 1980s, but the grading services are now grading these coins a half grade to a full grade higher. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2023 at 7:06 PM, Sandon said:

I don't think that the grading descriptions in the ANA grading guide have changed much since the 1980s, but the grading services are now grading these coins a half grade to a full grade higher. 

That's the age-old question (well, it's becoming the age-old question ):  technical vs. market grading.

 

[RWB]

Are they really "services" any longer? There's no consistency, coin titles are invented, etc., etc. This is the kind of nonsense that produces instability in ANY marketplace,

[J P M]

On 4/9/2023 at 7:06 PM, Sandon said:

   Unfortunately, yes. This 1910-S most closely matches the St. Gaudens example for the AU 50 grade on PCGS Photograde.

   I recently had ten uncertified gold coins that I bought between 1987 and 2002 graded by NGC for registry set purposes. A 1915 quarter eagle that a dealer had invoiced to me as an "AU+" in 1988 and for which ANACS had issued me a photo certificate reasonably graded "AU55/55" shortly thereafter now resides in an NGC holder graded "MS 63". (I intend to do a topic about that one.) An 1863-S double eagle that I bought at a 1995 Bowers and Merena auction catalogued as "EF-45" came back in an AU 53 holder. An 1899 double eagle for which ANACS issued me a photo certificate in 1987 as "AU 50/50" came back AU 55. Several other pieces came back graded AU 58, including a 1903-O eagle that I described as "Ch. EF" in my records and a heavily abraded and bagmarked 1876 double eagle.  I don't think that the grading descriptions in the ANA grading guide have changed much since the 1980s, but the grading services are now grading these coins a half grade to a full grade higher. 

Wow your coins graded very nicely. I think the standards were a lot tougher years ago. Many of the ANACS coins I have seen are graded lower than I would grade them. Gold is always harder to grade IMO so I can understand your gold coins getting a better grade in todays market. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2023 at 9:15 PM, RWB said:

Are they really "services" any longer? There's no consistency, coin titles are invented, etc., etc. This is the kind of nonsense that produces instability in ANY marketplace,

I don't doubt there are inconsistencies, gradeflation, and conflicts-of-interest....but I still think we are light-years better than 40-50 years ago, especially for those who can't spend hours each day on this hobby/business. 

[RWB]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't doubt there are inconsistencies, gradeflation, and conflicts-of-interest....but I still think we are light-years better than 40-50 years ago, especially for those who can't spend hours each day on this hobby/business. 

Back then -- somewhat before time began -- Collectors routinely took the time to learn how to grade coins, and identify common problems and alterations. As it always was, a fundamental part of the hobby. There was also much less hair-splitting for uncirculated  coins. The ranges we see today existed then, but it was the free market that determined meaningful value, not someone tossing numbered slips of paper into a crowded fishbowl.

All grades were "technical or 'by-the-book' and nonempirical attributes were reflected in price negotiation (or arguments) between owner and wana-be-owner.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/10/2023 at 8:19 AM, J P M said:

Wow your coins graded very nicely. I think the standards were a lot tougher years ago. Many of the ANACS coins I have seen are graded lower than I would grade them. Gold is always harder to grade IMO so I can understand your gold coins getting a better grade in todays market. 

Double Eagles (at least) are large coins...big fields....a soft metal.  I think the technical vs. market grading is a different form of any gradeflation than being a bit more forgiving for the size and composition of one coin vs. another (i.e., a small harder nickel or dime).

[powermad5000]

1910 S $20 MSLast updated 04/11/2023

BASE

PrAg	G	VG	F	VF	XF	50	53	55	58	60	61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70
$2125	$2125	$2150	$2150	$2150	$2175	$2175	$2200	$2200	$2225	$2275

 

We could split hairs all day about whether or not the coin is XF or AU. If it WERE graded, basically we are talking about $25-$50 worth of price guide value (not actual sale value or melt value). Which is why I stated simply that it is really just a matter of preference of the OP whether or not to spend extra money to have it slabbed.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:17 PM, powermad5000 said:

1910 S $20 MSLast updated 04/11/2023

BASE

PrAg	G	VG	F	VF	XF	50	53	55	58	60	61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70
$2125	$2125	$2150	$2150	$2150	$2175	$2175	$2200	$2200	$2225	$2275

 

We could split hairs all day about whether or not the coin is XF or AU. If it WERE graded, basically we are talking about $25-$50 worth of price guide value (not actual sale value or melt value). Which is why I stated simply that it is really just a matter of preference of the OP whether or not to spend extra money to have it slabbed.

I thought the coin traded like a common in sub-55 grades.  I couldn't find any recent XF-53 sales over at HA.  Bowers book had it as essentially bullion at the XF level, modest premium plus the 3% shortchange via the metallic composition.

[Walter Holmes]

Thank you all for contributing to the discussion on this thread. After reviewing several resources and comments it appears that the coin is indeed an XF. However, based upon the discussion of gradeflation I have decided to submit this coin to NGC which arrived at their location today. Value is not necessarily different between XF and AU. Consider this a research project to assess NGC’s grade versus pictures in “Make the grade”. If you’re interested I will post the results on this thread. 

[powermad5000]

For the benefit of testing our grading skills, please return and let us know how it comes back.

[Walter Holmes]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:18 PM, powermad5000 said:

For the benefit of testing our grading skills, please return and let us know how it comes back.

Much to my surprise it was graded AU55. Not sure of the reason for this. 

[J P M]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:35 AM, Walter Holmes said:

Much to my surprise it was graded AU55. Not sure of the reason for this. 

Very nice. Now you have the graded value of the coin give or take the market. I think 55 is a reasonable grade for this coin. 

[powermad5000]

@Walter Holmes Thanks for coming back and letting us know!!!! Well, you should feel good that the dealer you bought it from under graded it and the 55 is a good grade for it! Congrats! I always like a grading success story!

[Coinbuf]

Congrats, I was not thinking as high as AU55 from the photos but it must be better in-hand.  

[Walter Holmes]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:23 PM, powermad5000 said:

@Walter Holmes Thanks for coming back and letting us know!!!! Well, you should feel good that the dealer you bought it from under graded it and the 55 is a good grade for it! Congrats! I always like a grading success story!

I feel great!!!! LOL

[Coinbuf]

On 5/2/2023 at 5:50 PM, Walter Holmes said:

I feel great!!!! LOL

Just don't tell him about the grade or he will be raising his prices on you!  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Sandon]

On 4/9/2023 at 12:24 PM, Sandon said:

(I would also grade this one XF, but I think it would likely grade AU 50-53 at a grading service.)

   As it turns out, I was too conservative.  My own numerical grade would still be no higher than XF 45.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:08 PM, Sandon said:

   As it turns out, I was too conservative.  My own numerical grade would still be no higher than XF 45.

What are you incorporating to give it an XF instead of AU...and 45 instead of 55 ?  What's causing the big drop in your mind ?

[EagleRJO]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:08 PM, Sandon said:

 As it turns out, I was too conservative.  My own numerical grade would still be no higher than XF 45.

I was thinking the same, but looking at the NGC photo of the coin areas were it appeared to have some minor wear were likely just blurry portions of the op's original pics.