ASE Newbie Question 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:38 AM, BearlyHereBear said:

Just a thought on proof sets:  Clad proof sets are not as likely to appreciate in value over time.  Most are readily available on Ebay for very modest prices.  Silver proof set hold and gain value better

Isn't it just a question of too much supply ? 

When they were released in the late-1960's through 1980's, clad and other Mint/Proof sets were sold to the Baby Boom generation which saw earlier purchases of coins catch a demographic and investment and precious metals wave from 1970-1980 that made some investors (including some here) very rich.

I think lots of people thought buying stuff with 7-figure mintages would replicate that earlier success of coin collectors from 1933-1970 in 10 or 20 or 40 years.

Nope !! 

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:36 PM, Tony Follis said:

My guess as to why the burnished ASE's aren't the most expensive version is because they are always the last version to enter the marketplace each year. However,if the burnished ASE program were to end that potentially could cause the demand for burnished ASE's to increase which in turn will cause their value to increase drastically especially those that have been graded NGC MS70.

Mine will never be graded ANYTHING. I keep mine strictly in OGP. 

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2023 at 8:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Isn't it just a question of too much supply ? 

When they were released in the late-1960's through 1980's, clad and other Mint/Proof sets were sold to the Baby Boom generation which saw earlier purchases of coins catch a demographic and investment and precious metals wave from 1970-1980 that made some investors (including some here) very rich.

I think lots of people thought buying stuff with 7-figure mintages would replicate that earlier success of coin collectors from 1933-1970 in 10 or 20 or 40 years.

Nope !! 

Whenever people start buying “one to keep, one to sell”, they will never appreciate. RECENT years (VERY recent) have kept their values quite well, as have the occasional year before the most recent years.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Mine will never be graded ANYTHING. I keep mine strictly in OGP. 

I buy mine pre graded by NGC.

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:42 PM, Tony Follis said:

I buy mine pre graded by NGC.

“To each his own”, I suppose. I would never collect graded bullion coins.

Edited July 19, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:42 PM, Tony Follis said:

I buy mine pre graded by NGC.

Are you talking about Proof coins?  Even then, I buy them in OGP and leave them that way.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/19/2023 at 6:54 PM, EagleRJO said:

Are you talking about Proof coins?  Even then, I buy them in OGP and leave them that way.

No as I only collect the burnished ASE's. In most cases I can buy pre graded NGC MS70 burnished ASE's for an average of around $65.00 each. It would cost way too much to do a complete set of the bullion and proof versions in NGC MS70 grade.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2023 at 6:05 PM, Tony Follis said:

No as I only collect the burnished ASE's. In most cases I can buy pre graded NGC MS70 burnished ASE's for an average of around $65.00 each. It would cost way too much to do a complete set of the bullion and proof versions in NGC MS70 grade.

What has your 2023 cost you in MS 70? Way more than $65.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:33 PM, VKurtB said:

What has your 2023 cost you in MS 70? Way more than $65.

I haven't bought that one yet. Currently I'm seven coins short of completing the set. The odds are I'll be able to buy the 2023 pre graded NGC MS70 for around $170.00 - $190.00 at most. I remember in 2021 when type 2 came out and people were paying $250.00 - $450.00 for it without any market data to support spending that much money. Needless to say those buyers got hosed on the deal.

[Hoghead515]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:17 PM, VKurtB said:

Mine will never be graded ANYTHING. I keep mine strictly in OGP. 

I do the same now. When I first started I didnt know much about the hobby and bought some already graded. Now Id rather have all my bullion coins in the OGP. I really dont see the point in having them graded for my purpose with them.  

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:05 PM, Tony Follis said:

I only collect the burnished ASE's

Even though I prefer coins in OGP, I get that some go for the graded Burnished (Uncirculated) or Proof ASEs.  But I just shake my head when people talk about collecting graded bullion coins.

I do collect the bullion ASEs starting with 1986 since they don't cost that much, and have almost all of them with not one graded.  All raw BU grade coins for a little above spot, that are either in protective packaging from the dealer or that I do myself just for storage.

I was also working on a complete set of Proof ASEs in OPG starting with 1986, but decided to cancel my subscription after this year due to quality issues the mint doesn't seem interested in correcting.  So what's the point of filling in the gaps for Proof ASEs now?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:03 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I do the same now. When I first started I didnt know much about the hobby and bought some already graded. Now Id rather have all my bullion coins in the OGP. I really dont see the point in having them graded for my purpose with them.  

Sometimes...SOMETIMES....I'll get 2 of them IF I like the coin or commemorative.  One for MS or PF 70/69...the other in OGP.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:50 PM, EagleRJO said:

Even though I prefer coins in OGP, I get that some go for the graded Burnished (Uncirculated) or Proof ASEs.  But I just shake my head when people talk about collecting graded bullion coins.

I do collect the bullion ASEs starting with 1986 since they don't cost that much, and have almost all of them with not one graded.  All raw BU grade coins for a little above spot, that are either in protective packaging from the dealer or that I do myself just for storage.

I was also working on a complete set of Proof ASEs in OPG starting with 1986, but decided to cancel my subscription after this year due to quality issues the mint doesn't seem interested in correcting.  So what's the point of filling in the gaps for Proof ASEs now?

Personally I could never get into the bullion and proof versions of ASE's for some reason. To be completely honest I buy my coins pre graded to avoid a situation that the person who posted about buying a counterfeit coin from MA-shop and for insurance purposes. If I were considering buying a raw coin online I'd ask for opinions from the experienced collectors such as yourself. When I buy gold and silver coins I buy coins that I like the design of and eventually I'll be buying a very nice graded coin display case since I think the graded coin cases offered by NGC and PCGS look cheap.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Tony Follis

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:07 PM, Tony Follis said:

Personally I could never get into the bullion and proof versions of ASE's for some reason.

For me collecting the bullion ASEs is like my circulated quarters albums or binders of modern Presidential and Innovation $1 coins.  Not that it has numismatic value like my Morgan collection, older half dollars or gold coins, but just because I enjoy collecting them.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:17 PM, EagleRJO said:

For me collecting the bullion ASEs is like my circulated quarters albums or binders of modern Presidential and Innovation $1 coins.  Not that it has numismatic value like my Morgan collection, older half dollars or gold coins, but just because I enjoy collecting them.

My dad also collects Morgan dollars - none of which are graded so eventually I'll have to get them graded.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:22 PM, Tony Follis said:

My dad also collects Morgan dollars - none of which are graded so eventually I'll have to get them graded.

Not necessarily, unless they are more valuable ones.  I have almost a complete 105 coin circulated Morgan collection, and only a handful of the rarer or more valuable ones are graded.  Most are just raw BU grade, with some raw XF or AU grade, as many are still commonly available for not that much money.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:28 PM, EagleRJO said:

Not necessarily, unless they are more valuable ones.  I have almost a complete 105 coin circulated Morgan collection, and only a handful of the rarer or more valuable ones are graded.  Most are just raw BU grade, with some raw XF or AU grade, as many are still commonly available for not that much money.

I only saw his collection once (six years ago) but I think he had either a full set or near a full set. I won't even venture a grade guestimate as I'm a newbie to the hobby.

[Sandon]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:07 PM, Tony Follis said:

I buy my coins pre graded to avoid a situation that the person who posted about buying a counterfeit coin from MA-shop and for insurance purposes.

   If you purchase coins directly from the mint, they can't be counterfeit, and you can learn by studying them what genuine pieces look like.  (Grading service holders have been counterfeited, along with the "coins" in them.)  Your invoices from the mint should be adequate for insurance purposes.

  I started collecting long before grading services existed and am continually befuddled by the contemporary practice of taking already overpriced modern collectors' issues out of their protective mint capsules and paying the substantial cost of having them placed in grading service holders with grades of either "69" or "70", which are usually indistinguishable from each other. It will never make any sense to me.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:40 PM, Sandon said:

If you purchase coins directly from the mint, they can't be counterfeit

True, but if you are a newer collector working on a complete set of Burnished or Proof ASEs that's not an option.  Getting graded coins provides reasonable protection particularly for less experienced collectors, as I understand that counterfeit slabs for less expensive coins like ASEs are few and far between.

What I don't get is why the mint uses the term "Uncirculated" for the Burnished coins as used by the rest of the collecting world and the Red Book.  Plenty of other coins are also "uncirculated" without being burnished.

[Even the TPG's use the term "Burnished"]

Edited July 20, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Reno Raines]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, EagleRJO said:

True, but if you are a newer collector working on a complete set of Burnished or Proof ASEs that's not an option.

What I don't get is why the mint uses the term "Uncirculated" for the Burnished coins as used by the rest of the collecting world and the Red Book.

Yeah I don't understand why they call them "Uncirculated" instead of calling them burnished. Oh well since there's nothing we can do about that.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:22 PM, Tony Follis said:

My dad also collects Morgan dollars - none of which are graded so eventually I'll have to get them graded.

Why?

[Reno Raines]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:58 PM, VKurtB said:

Why?

Being that I'm a newbie to the hobby don't you think it's a wise idea to have any coins certified and a coin collection insured?

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2023 at 3:41 PM, Tony Follis said:

Being that I'm a newbie to the hobby don't you think it's a wise idea to have any coins certified and a coin collection insured?

No, not at all. Most of my collecting career, certification DID NOT EXIST. For the first dozen or so years of American Eagles, certification of THEM didn’t exist. ANA membership gives you access to special numismatic insurance from a carrier (Hugh Wood) that DOES NOT REQUIRE CERTIFICATION, other than for exceptionally valuable pieces (I believe $10K per coin). So…, what was your point again?

[VKurtB]

"The problem ain't what people don't know, it's what they do know that just ain't so."

[Reno Raines]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, VKurtB said:

No, not at all. Most of my collecting career, certification DID NOT EXIST. For the first dozen or so years of American Eagles, certification of THEM didn’t exist. ANA membership gives you access to special numismatic insurance from a carrier (Hugh Wood) that DOES NOT REQUIRE CERTIFICATION, other than for exceptionally valuable pieces (I believe $10K per coin). So…, what was your point again?

I'm not an ANA member and I most likely won't even be. I just tip toe in and out of the hobby as I have other investments.

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:41 PM, Tony Follis said:

I'm not an ANA member and I most likely won't even be. I just tip toe in and out of the hobby as I have other investments.

Okay, I take no responsibility for your bad decision making. Coins ARE NOT INVESTMENTS!!!!!!!! Remember, you read that here.

Edited July 20, 2023 by VKurtB

[Reno Raines]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, VKurtB said:

Okay, I take no responsibility for your bad decision making. Coins ARE NOT INVESTMENTS!!!!!!!! Remember, you read that here.

I never said that coins are an investment. However, in my case the only way I can get them insured is to have them certified / graded by a TPG as I'm not an ANA member. As we all know coins made from gold and silver are most likely to be counterfeited especially rare and or key dates. Don't twist my words.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, VKurtB said:

Okay, I take no responsibility for your bad decision making. Coins ARE NOT INVESTMENTS!!!!!!!! Remember, you read that here.

True, but he does have $$$ tied up in them, as do we all. 

What kind of insurance does Hugh Wood (a person or the company ?) provide that basic homeowners -- even a Masterpiece policy from Chubb -- doesn't ?

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2023 at 5:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True, but he does have $$$ tied up in them, as do we all. 

What kind of insurance does Hugh Wood (a person or the company ?) provide that basic homeowners -- even a Masterpiece policy from Chubb -- doesn't ?

Hugh Wood (a company) [Damn it, GOLDFinger, GO JOIN THE ANA!!!] offers better rates, BY FAAAAAAR, less red tape, and their coverage is AIMED AT NUMISMATISTS. If you insure through a general homeowner policy, you are the worst kind of fool. They will NEVER pay off if you have a loss. Pretty much EVERY dealer uses Hugh Wood.

https://hwinternational.com/us/

Keeping using this site as your coin info source is just embarrassing.

Edited July 20, 2023 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:41 PM, Tony Follis said:

Being that I'm a newbie to the hobby don't you think it's a wise idea to have any coins certified and a coin collection insured?

   Coin collecting, the "hobby of kings", goes back thousands of years, as do coins themselves.  Grading services that encapsulate coins have only existed since 1986, when PCGS opened for business. I don't think that any service that regularly even authenticated coins existed before 1972--the year after I started collecting--when the ANA started ANACS as a service that issued black and white photo certificates of authenticity. One avoided counterfeit, altered and overgraded coins by "buy[ing] the book before the coin," purchasing coins from reputable dealers, and learning as much as one could from books and periodicals, from study of the coins themselves, and from experienced collectors and dealers.

   This still works today. Collector versions of ASEs can readily be purchased from reputable dealers with their original mint packaging and certificates.  All of the Asian-produced fakes I have seen so far have obvious differences from the genuine coins that should be evident to you if you have bothered to look at authenticated examples or even their photos, such as those on PCGS Coinfacts. Even if you buy mostly or only certified coins, there is no substitute for developing your own knowledge, judgment, and taste, which is, for me, what makes coin collecting worthwhile, any financial benefits being at best an afterthought. Before buying coins of any value, you should endeavor to learn about them and ultimately rely on your own judgment about their authenticity and especially their grade notwithstanding any grading service opinion. Evolve from being a "newbie". 

   As I recall, when PCGS and NGC started business they initially wouldn't accept any coins dated after 1950, which date was gradually changed to 1964 and 1970 before the services eventually began accepting all modern coins. Third-party grading and authentication was believed to be suitable only for coins worth at least hundreds (more likely thousands) of dollars, especially those that were frequently altered or counterfeited or those where a point or two in grade would result in a substantial difference in market value. No one imagined then that people would remove common modern collectors' issues, nearly all of which are superb gems, from their mint packaging, pay grading fees and costs often exceeding their mint issue price, and then sell them for exorbitant prices. 

   Whether or not to an insure a collection is an entirely different issue that depends on the value of the collection, how it is stored, and other factors.  I had never heard of an insurance carrier requiring third party certification for generally low value coins such as ASEs.  You may want to shop around for a carrier who has no such requirement.