U.S. Gold Coins That Actually Circulated 1 1

[Sandon]

   The presently uncertified 1906-D Liberty and 1909-D Indian half eagles (five dollar gold pieces) and the 1907 "Indian" Head eagle (ten dollar gold piece) shown here are part of a group of $75 face value in half eagles and eagles dated between 1881 and 1911 that my grandparents saved when gold coins were recalled from circulation in 1933. My grandmother told me that they were among the gold coins that customers spent at a corner grocery store that my grandparents and my grandfather's parents had operated in an East Coast city during the 1920s. Although a large portion of the U.S. gold coins that are available to collectors today are pieces that have returned from overseas storage, the pieces shown here are examples of those that were actually used in commerce in the United States.  Though lightly worn, they have fewer bag marks than the typical coin returned from overseas.

   I have read contentions that U.S. gold coins were almost never used in day-to-day commerce in the twentieth century, except to some extent in the West.  I know these coins to be evidence to the contrary.

   Your thoughts?

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Sandon

[RWB]

The contentions are, overall, correct. But use of gold coins also varied with different parts of the country, denominations, and time periods. Western territories and states saw greater gold circulation than the North East and Mid-Atlantic. The South had limited gold circulation because it was a critical payment for imported items, further; much of the population was isolated and too poor to ever see a gold coin. The smallest and largest denominations circulated very little: $1, $3, and $20. $5 and $10 were more frequently seen and $2.50 up to about 1900. The Indian designs were not liked by almost everyone who handled coins.

Treasury documents and gold movements are absolutely clear that the only time there was much public demand for gold coins was the christmas/New Year holiday period.

On 3/26/2023 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

My grandmother told me that they were among the gold coins that customers spent at a corner grocery store that my grandparents and my grandfather's parents had operated in an East Coast city during the 1920s.

That result is to be expected by a merchant. They handled more coins than wage earners, and had a tendency to hold back anything unusual, thus further concentrating the impression of more extensive gold coin circulation than was the case. An uncle of mine worked at the central US Post Office in NY City for 15 years -- mostly at a counter position. Over that time he saved every Indian cent, every odd-ball (commemorative) half or other silver coin, and every gold coin received across his counter. When he gave the coins to his son, my cousin, there were thousands of Indian cents, 2 $2.50, 2 commem. halves (Stone Mountain and Columbian Expo), a couple of 3-cent silver and 3-cent nickel, and that was it. Liberty 5-cent were too common to keep.

Edited March 27, 2023 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks for sharing the story, Sandon....what you state jibes with what I've read in my gold books including the one right now on Liberty Head DE's.

I knew that Double Eagles and Eagles circulated very infrequently but until I actually read some books and informative forum posts here, I was surprised by how much Double Eagles were the "workhorse" behind 400 oz. gold bars in international trade settlements and so lightly used in commerce, even out West.

Eagles seem to be the ones caught in between usage-wise:  not used as often as Double Eagles in trade, but not circulated like half or quarter-eagles for commerce..

[Henri Charriere]

It seems most if not all would be ideal candidates for submission.  I would be curious to know how Doug Winter feels about these.  (Comment submitted:  0330 hrs., EDT).

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/27/2023 at 4:21 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

It seems most if not all would be ideal candidates for submission.  I would be curious to know how Doug Winter feels about these.  (Comment submitted:  0330 hrs., EDT).

Probably the sentimental value to Sandon is greatest since they originated within his family. 

[olympicsos]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:25 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Probably the sentimental value to Sandon is greatest since they originated within his family. 

Even so, there's a lot of counterfeit gold, especially with Indian Heads and I'd be uncomfortable touching one raw. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/28/2023 at 8:09 AM, olympicsos said:

Even so, there's a lot of counterfeit gold, especially with Indian Heads and I'd be uncomfortable touching one raw. 

Were counterfeits that widespread BEFORE 1970 ?  For those of you a bit older, was this an issue in the 1950's and 1960's ?

[RWB]

Counterfeits turn up in mint correspondence as ways to defraud the public on the face value of a coin versus it's legal metal content of gold and silver. Many of these involved removing precious metal from authentic coins: sweating, drilling, tumbling, vertical edge shaving, etc. The proportion of complete counterfeits seems smaller -- possibly 30 percent? For minor coins, nickels and 3-cent CuNi were commonly complete replacement counterfeits.

In the 1930s alterations were very uncommon and complete fakes dominated. Coin popularizes like Mehl also informed crooks about coins that required simple alterations to boost value. During and after WW-II counterfeit gold pieces were made in an attempt to skim profit from widely exchanged coin types. Few collector counterfeits show up until the mid-1950s when prices on collectors coins began to increase.

Among 19th century coin collectors and dealers, the concerns focused on counterfeits of known rarities, electrotypes deliberately sold as genuine, and invented ancient coin types.

Many counterfeits from the 19th and 20th centuries can be identified by elemental analysis.

 

[Zebo]

I started to go off topic and mention Łódź ghetto coins and counterfeits. Sorry to the OP - I’ll save it for a new topic.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Zebo

[Sandon]

   Thanks to all who have replied to this topic. 

   My grandmother told me that, although currency was more commonly used in the grocery store than gold, it was not uncommon for customers to spend $5, $10 and occasionally $2.50 gold pieces. (She related that once there was "a little shiny penny" in the till that turned out to be a quarter eagle.)  She had never heard of $20 gold pieces, which is consistent with their being understood to have been used mostly in international and bank-to-bank transactions.  Both my grandparents and their customers were largely recent Eastern European Jewish immigrants who weren't wealthy by any means. 

   I have no concern about any of these coins being counterfeit based on their provenance and my familiarity with these types.  I may submit at least the 1907 $10 Indian to NGC for my gold type registry set, although I don't think it would be numerically graded due to the edge damage.

[Just Bob]

In my opinion, the best thing about these coins is that they were handed down from your grandparents. Aside from one oak table that belonged to my father's grandmother, I have nothing from any of my ancestors other than my parents. 

[Zebo]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:55 PM, Just Bob said:

In my opinion, the best thing about these coins is that they were handed down from your grandparents. Aside from one oak table that belonged to my father's grandmother, I have nothing from any of my ancestors other than my parents. 

Why not collect a coin from the city where they were born, if they produced one or one dated from when they were born? I’m currently searching for one dated the year my fifth great-grandfather was born, luckily, they also recently issued a coin from the city where he was born. Do that for each known ancestor and you’d have quite a collection to go with your genealogy if you research it.

[coastaljerseyguy]

Interesting post.  I acquired 1 double eagle from my dad when he passed away.  It was his birth year, 1927.  I believe he got it in Vegas in the early 70's.  He went there at least once a year during that period.  He was like RWB's uncle, he worked in a bank for over 25 years and also saved every silver coin that passed his way.  Anyway this coin somehow and somewhere circulated since it appears to be an XF.  I always wondered where it circulated and its been sitting untouched for many years now.  Finding it today figure I should store in a better holder.

[RWB]

Unusual circulation find even in a bank...Too bad there is no "S" mintmark!

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:24 PM, coastaljerseyguy said:

Interesting post.  I acquired 1 double eagle from my dad when he passed away.  It was his birth year, 1927.  I believe he got it in Vegas in the early 70's.  He went there at least once a year during that period.  He was like RWB's uncle, he worked in a bank for over 25 years and also saved every silver coin that passed his way.  Anyway this coin somehow and somewhere circulated since it appears to be an XF.  I always wondered where it circulated and its been sitting untouched for many years now.  Finding it today figure I should store in a better holder.

It can be tough to tell if it truly circulated commercially...was subject to lots of bag wear.....and/or was mishandled by human fingers.

Still, a nice worn coin that isn't a bad candidate if you want a coin to physically "touch" a Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle.

 

[olympicsos]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:24 PM, coastaljerseyguy said:

Interesting post.  I acquired 1 double eagle from my dad when he passed away.  It was his birth year, 1927.  I believe he got it in Vegas in the early 70's.  He went there at least once a year during that period.  He was like RWB's uncle, he worked in a bank for over 25 years and also saved every silver coin that passed his way.  Anyway this coin somehow and somewhere circulated since it appears to be an XF.  I always wondered where it circulated and its been sitting untouched for many years now.  Finding it today figure I should store in a better holder.

It looks good for a coin that circulated. There's silver coins that circulated that don't even look that good. 

[RWB]

On 3/30/2023 at 11:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It can be tough to tell if it truly circulated commercially...was subject to lots of bag wear.....and/or was mishandled by human fingers.

Still, a nice worn coin that isn't a bad candidate if you want a coin to physically "touch" a Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle.

 

Eagle's chest, head and upper wing have ordinary abrasion, not bag or contact damage.

[coastaljerseyguy]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:11 PM, RWB said:

Eagle's chest, head and upper wing have ordinary abrasion, not bag or contact damage.

Agree 100%, here's some better photos in cloudy sunlight by window.

 

[J P M]

The nose, chest, knee the hand on the torch all from circulation . It looks like a pocket coin nice and  smooth except for the new marks on the tail and rim.

[RWB]

Accurately graded approx EF-45, but with several rim cuts that might preclude putting in a plastic slab.

[Sandon]

    The photos I originally included in this topic when I originally posted it nearly a year ago didn't include one of the coins that was passed down to me through my grandparents, as I hadn't had an opportunity to retrieve it from a safe deposit box and photograph it. It is a 1910-S "Indian" Head eagle, the only "S" mint coin among the gold coins my grandparents saved. It is also one of the most worn of these coins that were actually used in commerce. I grade it Extremely Fine.

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:59 PM, Sandon said:

    "The presently uncertified 1906-D Liberty and 1909-D Indian half eagles (five dollar gold pieces) and the 1907 "Indian" Head eagle (ten dollar gold piece) shown here are part of a group of $75 face value in half eagles and eagles dated between 1881 and 1911 that my grandparents saved when gold coins were recalled from circulation in 1933...."

   Your thoughts?

 

My thoughts? Don't mind if I do...  (Imprimis, I should like to direct @VKurtB's attention to the clever way you seamlessly defied his unilateral declaration that no thread older than six months be revived, directing that they should rot instead.) Moving right along, I should like to request you direct your attention to the line, preceding your post of the two coins, as hereinabove quoted, and, taking judicial notice that the then-President's Executive Order mandating the recall of gold coins, has since been superseded and/or rescinded, ask you whether your grandparents' action of willfull and knowing withholding of the gold coins depicted, constituted a violation of the mandatory recall?  🐓 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/29/2023 at 7:57 PM, Sandon said:

My grandmother told me that, although currency was more commonly used in the grocery store than gold, it was not uncommon for customers to spend $5, $10 and occasionally $2.50 gold pieces. (She related that once there was "a little shiny penny" in the till that turned out to be a quarter eagle.)  She had never heard of $20 gold pieces, which is consistent with their being understood to have been used mostly in international and bank-to-bank transactions.  Both my grandparents and their customers were largely recent Eastern European Jewish immigrants who weren't wealthy by any means. 

I would say that immigrants from Eastern Europe -- esp. Jews -- were more likely to bring over gold coins and then continue to utilize them in their trades or business, if customary like Sandon's ancestors food market.  I would expect Irish immigrants to not have much in the way of gold savings and not to be business ownes in a position to utilize or accept gold coins.

JMHO.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/15/2024 at 9:48 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I should like to request you direct your attention to the line, preceding your post of the two coins, as hereinabove quoted, and, taking judicial notice that the then-President's Executive Order mandating the recall of gold coins, has since been superseded and/or rescinded, ask you whether your grandparents' action of willfull and knowing withholding of the gold coins depicted, constituted a violation of the mandatory recall?

Sandon didn't say if they had any sizeable quantity of gold coins, just a few that he inherited plus the fact that they dealt in coins from time-to-time.

His grandparents would have been allowed to hold/possess $200 in gold coins between them.

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Sandon didn't say if they had any sizeable quantity of gold coins, just a few that he inherited plus the fact that they dealt in coins from time-to-time.

His grandparents would have been allowed to hold/possess $200 in gold coins between them.

 

I hereby apologize to the learned OP, and ask fellow members to disregard my intemperate insinuation.

[Sandon]

   @Henri Charriere and @GoldFinger1969--As stated in the initial post, my grandparents saved a total of $75 face value in gold, which as noted was legal. I ultimately received $30 in face value (the two eagles and two half eagles shown here), and the remaining $45 have been distributed among my first cousins.  My grandparents never dealt in coins or knew much about them. When my grandmother gave me the 1907 "Indian" eagle as a birthday gift in 1973, she thought that she was giving me $10!

[Jason Abshier]

Imagine long time ago when gold coins were treated according to their face value used sometimes sparsely among hard working Americans walking down street to go to store reach in your pocket oopsie got hole in pockets lost a couple of gold $2.50 on side walk or in store somewhere or between couch cushions (just a little humor $2.50 back then was big money ! I’m sure people held on to their change better back then compared to today if we lose a quarter or nickel in our pocket change we don’t fret over it)  , fast forward today $2.50 gold coin even in worst condition has melt value $260 ! How far we have come !!! 
 

most gold didn’t circulate much during 19th and 20th century , same could be said about certain world gold coins you can find a lot world gold coins in mint condition they did not circulate very much as well during that time.

Edited March 16 by Jason Abshier

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:55 PM, Just Bob said:

.... I have nothing from any of my ancestors other than my parents. 

How about... genes?  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/15/2024 at 10:35 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I hereby apologize to the learned OP, and ask fellow members to disregard my intemperate insinuation.

We're all here to learn...it's all a journey. 

[zadok]

On 3/16/2024 at 10:14 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

We're all here to learn...it's all a journey. 

...a few r not, they just seek an audience for no real purpose because they have none elsewhere....