CAC and MAC stickers 1 1

[Coinbuf]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:43 AM, Halbrook Family said:

Does cac turn down coins to put a sticker on? If they do how does one know they would not put a sticker on it? Or maybe I misunderstand how cac stickers work in the first place. 

Yes, according to the CAC website they sticker around 45% of all coins sent to them.   That is just a general stat which does not apply across all coin types, for example gold Saints have a very low stickering success rate vs Merc dimes that have a high success rate.    CAC does not provide data on the coins they do not sticker to insure that those coins are not punished in the marketplace.

[Coinbuf]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:50 AM, Halbrook Family said:

What is this W sticker on my coin? A Wac sticker? 

 

Slight white sticker, they were discussed briefly earlier in this thread.

[powermad5000]

The W on your slab is from a company called Sight White, a service that officially recognizes bright white coins.

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:52 AM, Coinbuf said:

Slight white sticker, they were discussed briefly earlier in this thread.

What company does this? CAC? Slight White? I'm kind of confused. Someone paid extra to put that w sticker on my coin? Why? It's not even a FBL. I also have it on a 1963 one with same grade. A person paid a extra $10 to put that on there? I got a few graded coins but I'm not fanatical about them. I'm more into getting my dansco books with the best coins in there.  The coin shop I bought the w sticker from didn't know what the sticker was. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:10 AM, powermad5000 said:

The W on your slab is from a company called Sight White, a service that officially recognizes bright white coins.

Someone paid for that? 

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:51 AM, Coinbuf said:

Yes, according to the CAC website they sticker around 45% of all coins sent to them.   That is just a general stat which does not apply across all coin types, for example gold Saints have a very low stickering success rate vs Merc dimes that have a high success rate.    CAC does not provide data on the coins they do not sticker to insure that those coins are not punished in the marketplace.

shouldn't cac do gold stickers for the best and say brown stickers for the worst? Let me see if I got this right. You send your coin in to get a sticker and then you don't and you still have to pay? 

[Halbrook Family]

So basically the same coin could get sent in over and over again and the person paying $10 each time? 

[jimbo27]

On 6/9/2024 at 2:41 PM, Halbrook Family said:

So basically the same coin could get sent in over and over again and the person paying $10 each time? 

Yes, and its $22 per coin for economy tier CAC stickers. Coins that don't get stickers receive 25% off per coin or $5.50. I sent in 8 coins and 4 made the grade, which is about average, I guess.

[Coinbuf]

On 6/9/2024 at 11:31 AM, Halbrook Family said:

What company does this? CAC? Slight White? I'm kind of confused. Someone paid extra to put that w sticker on my coin? Why? It's not even a FBL. I also have it on a 1963 one with same grade. A person paid a extra $10 to put that on there? I got a few graded coins but I'm not fanatical about them. I'm more into getting my dansco books with the best coins in there.  The coin shop I bought the w sticker from didn't know what the sticker was. 

Slight white is the name of the company, slight white has no affiliation with CAC.

On 6/9/2024 at 11:33 AM, Halbrook Family said:

shouldn't cac do gold stickers for the best and say brown stickers for the worst? Let me see if I got this right. You send your coin in to get a sticker and then you don't and you still have to pay? 

CAC chose the sticker colors, and as I said they do not identify coins that do not sticker to prevent impacting the value of those coins if/when they might be sold or auctioned off in the future.   Would you want a brown turd sticker placed onto your favorite coin and see a 1/3rd reduction of its value in the marketplace, I doubt you would and thus why CAC does not make the information on coins that failed public.   Just because a coin fails at CAC does not mean that the coin is junk, only that it does not qualify as solid (or better) for the grade in the opinion of CAC.   Not all MS65's are equal, some are just better than others, CAC attempts to identify those with their sticker, a failed coin might be overgraded or have surface issues in the eyes of CAC, but just like grading it is only one opinion.   I own several coins that I sent to CAC which failed and I still like those coins just as much today as when I bought them.

Yes you pay for the opinion whether you like or agree with that opinion or not, same as when you send coins to NGC or PCGS.   Talk to anyone that has submitted coins for grading, everyone has at one time or another gotten a coin back that did not grade or graded lower than they expected or agree with, and yes they still paid for that TPG service/grade opinion regardless of if they agree with it.

On 6/9/2024 at 11:41 AM, Halbrook Family said:

So basically the same coin could get sent in over and over again and the person paying $10 each time? 

Yes, again this is not news or new, it happens with graded coins as well.   Have you ever cracked a coin out of a holder for your album?   Perhaps when you or your heirs decide to sell that coin will you then send it to a TPG for grading (now at least the second time it will be graded) or perhaps the new owner will sent it to be graded.    In many cases the grading companies have graded the same coins multiple times, this is not new.

Edited June 9 by Coinbuf

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:02 PM, jimbo27 said:

Yes, and its $22 per coin for economy tier CAC stickers. Coins that don't get stickers receive 25% off per coin or $5.50. I sent in 8 coins and 4 made the grade, which is about average, I guess.

OK say now I buy one of the ones that you did not get a sticker on and I send it to them. Don't really sound right.  Sounds like a good business plan though. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:05 PM, Coinbuf said:

Slight white is the name of the company, slight white has no affiliation with CAC.

CAC chose the sticker colors, and as I said they do not identify coins that do not sticker to prevent impacting the value of those coins if/when they might be sold or auctioned off in the future.   Would you want a brown turd sticker placed onto your favorite coin and see a 1/3rd reduction of its value in the marketplace, I doubt you would and thus why CAC does not make the information on coins that failed public.   Just because a coin fails at CAC does not mean that the coin is junk, only that it does not qualify as solid (or better) for the grade in the opinion of CAC.   Not all MS65's are equal, some are just better than others, CAC attempts to identify those with their sticker, a failed coin might be overgraded or have surface issues in the eyes of CAC, but just like grading it is only one opinion.   I own several coins that I sent to CAC which failed and I still like those coins just as much today as when I bought them.

Yes you pay for the opinion whether you like or agree with that opinion or not, same as when you send coins to NGC or PCGS.   Talk to anyone that has submitted coins for grading, everyone has at one time or another gotten a coin back that did not grade or graded lower than they expected or agree with, and yes they still paid for that TPG service/grade opinion regardless of if they agree with it.

Yes, again this is not news or new, it happens with graded coins as well.   Have you ever cracked a coin out of a holder for your album?   Perhaps when you or your heirs decide to sell that coin will you then send it to a TPG for grading (now at least the second time it will be graded) or perhaps the new owner will sent it to be graded.    In many cases the grading companies have graded the same coins multiple times, this is not new.

No I never cracked one out of the holder. There is two coins I want that are expensive and I want for my dansco book. Lincoln cent 1914D and Mercury dime 1916D. I do wonder if it's smarter to buy a coin that is graded or raw. 

But basically CAC can make a ton of money on the same exact coin over and over. 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:50 PM, Halbrook Family said:

No I never cracked one out of the holder. There is two coins I want that are expensive and I want for my dansco book. Lincoln cent 1914D and Mercury dime 1916D. I do wonder if it's smarter to buy a coin that is graded or raw. 

As both are heavily counterfeited so unless you are extremely confident in the source of your raw coins you would be far ahead of the game to buy one or both of these coins in a reputable TPG holder.   That does not guarantee that you will not buy a counterfeit but you have the TPG guaranty of authenticity to fall back on, there is seldom a guarantee like that from your local coin shop.

On 6/9/2024 at 6:50 PM, Halbrook Family said:

But basically CAC can make a ton of money on the same exact coin over and over. 

You seem to have some real heartburn on this why?   CAC is doing nothing different than NGC or PCGS yet you have singled them out and seem to be implying that they are harming submitters, why?   Why is it ok for NGC to regrade a coin several times but it is not ok for CAC to review a coin more than once?   I see no difference as both firms have the same opportunity to make grading fees from the same coin as many times as it is submitted.   In fact CAC has on very rare occasion changed their opinion and have awarded a bean to a coin that failed the first time around.   So a second look is not always a bad thing.

In a conversation that I read with a top grader who had been with PCGS for a very long time he referred to some coins as "old friends" because during his grading time he had seen some coins so many times that they were instantly recognizable.   When you consider the enormous volume of coins that graders see every day, it stands to reason that those old friend coins had to be submitted, and submitted and submitted a lot for them to be so easily remembered.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/9/2024 at 9:40 PM, Halbrook Family said:

OK say now I buy one of the ones that you did not get a sticker on and I send it to them. Don't really sound right.  Sounds like a good business plan though. 

Hal, curious.....how long have you been collecting coins ?  Surely you have heard of CAC and understand that they merely confirm the "A" coins as they referred to them at the time.  While your sentiments regarding failed coins are not unique -- many people have issues with CAC -- there is nothing nefarious on their part.  CAC was a response to gradeflation in some respects.

There are a few threads here with interviews with John Albanese, the founder of CAC.  The 2008 interview with Maurice Rosen is very good reading if you want to learn about their methodology.

On 6/9/2024 at 9:50 PM, Halbrook Family said:

But basically CAC can make a ton of money on the same exact coin over and over. 

That tends not to happen.  It is true that even CAC can determine a coin doesn't deserve to sticker....and the person (or subsequent owner) can re-submit a few more times and it fails each time....and then you submit one last time and BINGO !!!  CAC sticker and maybe a big boost in value (or maybe not).

The same thing can happen with the TPGs.  It's sort of like joining the Mafia....it's the business we have chosen to get into. 

Edited June 10 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:55 PM, Coinbuf said:

In a conversation that I read with a top grader who had been with PCGS for a very long time he referred to some coins as "old friends" because during his grading time he had seen some coins so many times that they were instantly recognizable.   When you consider the enormous volume of coins that graders see every day, it stands to reason that those old friend coins had to be submitted, and submitted and submitted a lot for them to be so easily remembered.

And chances are these are coins that were right on the bubble...an inflection point....between 2 grades where the higher one means alot more $$$ for the owner.  The Franklin Gradeflation Thread ATS is the classic example where an astute collector DID re-submit and could not get the upgrade and the coin eventually went up like 1 1/2 grades with a CAC (I believe) and sold for like 25x the amount he sold it for. 

Happened in like 18 months or something relatively quick, as I recall.

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 7:55 PM, Coinbuf said:

 

You seem to have some real heartburn on this why?   CAC is doing nothing different than NGC or PCGS yet you have singled them out and seem to be implying that they are harming submitters, why?   Why is it ok for NGC to regrade a coin several times but it is not ok for CAC to review a coin more than once?   I see no difference as both firms have the same opportunity to make grading fees from the same coin as many times as it is submitted.   In fact CAC has on very rare occasion changed their opinion and have awarded a bean to a coin that failed the first time around.   So a second look is not always a bad thing.

 

It just seems wrong> I guess the others you can crack it out and get it in a holder of your choosing but to me that even seems dumb if you got it already in a NGC or PCGS holder. I only have a few coins graded anyways. I have never sent any in. I mainly prefer raw coins. Probably the only raw coin I have worth grading is the gold mercury dime but there is no point sending that in. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Hal, curious.....how long have you been collecting coins ?  Surely you have heard of CAC and understand that they merely confirm the "A" coins as they referred to them at the time.  While your sentiments regarding failed coins are not unique -- many people have issues with CAC -- there is nothing nefarious on their part.  CAC was a response to gradeflation in some respects.

Been collecting for about 6 years. I'm not saying there is something bad about CAC. I pretty much prefer raw anyways. They mean more to people with really expensive coins more so then me. Does a Slight White sticker make my coin more desirable or worth more? I don't think the store I bought it from knew what it meant if I remember right. I'm sure they know CAC. I got two Slight White coins both the same grade PF67. 1961 and 1963 Benj. 

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:05 PM, Coinbuf said:

   Not all MS65's are equal, some are just better than others, CAC attempts to identify those with their sticker, a failed coin might be overgraded or have surface issues in the eyes of CAC, but just like grading it is only one opinion.   I own several coins that I sent to CAC which failed and I still like those coins just as much today as when I bought them.

.

Shouldn't all MS65's be equal? 

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 6/10/2024 at 3:32 PM, Halbrook Family said:

It just seems wrong> I guess the others you can crack it out and get it in a holder of your choosing but to me that even seems dumb if you got it already in a NGC or PCGS holder. I only have a few coins graded anyways. I have never sent any in. I mainly prefer raw coins. Probably the only raw coin I have worth grading is the gold mercury dime but there is no point sending that in. 

Grading is super nuanced, subjective and highly controversial.  CAC was designed for collectors to get an independent, expert opinion on coins that are "solid for the grade" (green), or "would be solid for the next grade up" (gold).  Now, CAC has started CACG; an independent TPG with its own holders.  I will say that CAC is a bit of a mess right now since all of the new business models have started in VA.  However, historically CAC stickers have been a market maker.  A gold CAC will almost always sell for more than the next highest grade coin.

 The crack-out game, and the sticker games are real.  I am not saying it's wrong at all, but it add another layer of nuance to an already complicated hobby.  CAC stickers matter, because John Albanese is an expert grader and is seen as numismatic royalty.  Rick Snow is known for being an expert in Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cents, so his Eagle Eye stickers hold some weight on those types.  Stacks/David Hall CMQ stickers remain to be seen as a differentiator in the marketplace, but perhaps collectors will see them as the new "independent" validation source.  The rest are actually silly, and I smile when I see a coin with three stickers.

In the end.... you either like the coin, or you don't.

[powermad5000]

On 6/10/2024 at 2:32 PM, Halbrook Family said:

Probably the only raw coin I have worth grading is the gold mercury dime but there is no point sending that in.

I am scratching my head dramatically with this. Could you explain to me gold Mercury dime? Is this some modern fantasy coin?

[Sandon]

On 6/10/2024 at 10:43 PM, powermad5000 said:

Could you explain to me gold Mercury dime?

  Presumably, the reference is to the 2016-W centennial commemorative issue, containing a tenth of an ounce of .9999 fine gold and bearing the design of the "Mercury" dime. The mint sold 124,885 of them, according to the "Red Book", which lists them in between the 2015 and 2016 Roosevelt dime issues, at least in the 2023 edition.  There were similar 2016-W gold commemorative issues of the Standing Liberty quarter and the Liberty Walking half dollar.

[Halbrook Family]

Also a 2014 Kennedy half dollar. That one is very nice. 

[Coinbuf]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:32 PM, Halbrook Family said:

It just seems wrong> I guess the others you can crack it out and get it in a holder of your choosing but to me that even seems dumb if you got it already in a NGC or PCGS holder. I only have a few coins graded anyways. I have never sent any in. I mainly prefer raw coins. Probably the only raw coin I have worth grading is the gold mercury dime but there is no point sending that in. 

 

On 6/10/2024 at 1:36 PM, Halbrook Family said:

Shouldn't all MS65's be equal? 

You have much to learn grasshopper.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:36 PM, Halbrook Family said:

Shouldn't all MS65's be equal? 

If you have a local coin show, go look at as many coins in your favorite series as you can in holders, but don't buy anything.  Then, come home and look at as many coins as you can in NGC and PCGS holders in the grades you like online ( 1921 Morgan Dollars on eBay in MS65).

• Do some have more chatter/bag marks than others?
• Are some better struck?
• Is the coin attractive without unsightly marks/toning?
• Is it original, dipped, or over-dipped?
• Does the coin have luster?  Is the luster broken anywhere on the coin?
• Are there other problems ?
  • Has the toning etched the surface to the point of borderline environmental damage?
  • Is the scratch a little too deep/wide for a straight grade in your opinion?
  • Are there hairlines from a pervious cleaning (yes, cleaned coins are in straight graded holders)?
  • Has the coin been recolored/Artificially Toned (AT)
  • Are the surfaces hard/smooth, or is there micro porosity?
  • Are there rim dings?
  • etc. etc. etc.

Make a note of the coin... then look at the same coin, in the same grade, in the same way.  Is it better/worse/same?  Then another, and another.  You will find a LOT of variation in the same grade.  Try to stay with one type, date and mintmark at a time (i.e. comparing a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel and a 1926-D Buffalo Nickel would be challenging, as the 26-D is almost guaranteed to be more weakly struck.  As a newer grader without appreciation for the series, this may be confused with wear). 

Edited June 12 by The Neophyte Numismatist
typo - it's NGC not NCG.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/10/2024 at 3:32 PM, Halbrook Family said:

.... Probably the only raw coin I have worth grading is the gold mercury dime but there is no point sending that in. 

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

PROOFS ARE GRADED ROUTINELY SO WHY WOULDN'T A GOLD "Business Strike" BE WORTHY OF GRADING?

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:08 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

If you have a local coin show, go look at as many coins in your favorite series as you can in holders, but don't buy anything.  Then, come home and look at as many coins as you can in NCG and PCGS holders in the grades you like online ( 1921 Morgan Dollars on eBay in MS65).

• Do some have more chatter/bag marks than others?
• Are some better struck?
• Is the coin attractive without unsightly marks/toning?
• Is it original, dipped, or over-dipped?
• Does the coin have luster?  Is the luster broken anywhere on the coin?
• Are there other problems ?
  • Has the toning etched the surface to the point of borderline environmental damage?
  • Is the scratch a little too deep/wide for a straight grade in your opinion?
  • Are there hairlines from a pervious cleaning (yes, cleaned coins are in straight graded holders)?
  • Has the coin been recolored/Artificially Toned (AT)
  • Are the surfaces hard/smooth, or is there micro porosity?
  • Are there rim dings?
  • etc. etc. etc.

Make a note of the coin... then look at the same coin, in the same grade, in the same way.  Is it better/worse/same?  Then another, and another.  You will find a LOT of variation in the same grade.  Try to stay with one type, date and mintmark at a time (i.e. comparing a 1938-D Buffalo Nickel and a 1926-D Buffalo Nickel would be challenging, as the 26-D is almost guaranteed to be more weakly struck.  As a newer grader without appreciation for the series, this may be confused with wear). 

There is one variable no one ever seems to acknowledge.  It is not the TPGS that is grading/certifying your coin. It is a group of, for the most part, nameless, faceless people who theoretically are free tovcome and go, be promoted or otherwise elevated -- even retired. Of course, this only confirms subjectivity, buy there is no telling whether what grader finds appealing overall fails to impress another.

A review of comments lodged on this Forum confirms this:  some are fans of strong strikes; others are swayed by eye appeal.  Not a week goes by that one member fails to use the line "now graded ______ by NGC."

[J P M]

On 6/12/2024 at 10:16 AM, Henri Charriere said:

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I HAVE EVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

PROOFS ARE GRADED ROUTINELY SO WHY WOULDN'T A GOLD "Business Strike" BE WORTHY OF GRADING?

I think Ricky should get Henri a Red Book  2016-W 10C 100th Anniversary Gold (Special Strike) 2016 Centennial Series - PCGS CoinFacts

Edited June 12 by J P M

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/12/2024 at 6:37 PM, J P M said:

I think Ricky should get Henri a Red Book 

And how, pray tell, will that enlighten me?  

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/12/2024 at 6:37 PM, J P M said:

I think Ricky should get Henri a Red Book  2016-W 10C 100th Anniversary Gold (Special Strike) 2016 Centennial Series - PCGS CoinFacts

I thought it was common knowledge by now that I have one, looked at it once, and decided right then and there I didn't like it. a). I do not appreciate the newfangled term, "business strike";  b)  It was brought to my attention that, being composed of gold, it was smaller than a standard Merc, and. c)  evidently because it was a circulation strike and not a Proof (I don't know how I overlooked that) it, to me, lacks sufficient detail.  I want my money back on that one even though I paid a premium for it.  

Back on Track!

Edited June 13 by Henri Charriere
Line deleted to avoid a violation of the guidelies.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:33 PM, Halbrook Family said:

I got two Slight White coins both the same grade PF67. 

I have never heard or read about any "Sight White" (NOT Slight  )....but it apparently is some newfangled thing for silver/white coins:

https://sightwhite.com/

Looks like a guy just trying to copycat CAC on a much much smaller scale.

 

Edited June 13 by GoldFinger1969

[Halbrook Family]

On 6/12/2024 at 7:10 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I thought it was common knowledge by now that I have one, looked at it once, and decided right then and there I didn't like it. a). I do not appreciate the newfangled term, "business strike";  b)  It was brought to my attention that, being composed of gold, it was smaller than a standard Merc, and. c)  evidently because it was a circulation strike and not a Proof (I don't know how I overlooked that) it, to me, lacks sufficient detail.  I want my money back on that one even though I paid a premium for it.  

Back on Track!

I thought this Merc looks really good. I thought it was the same size. The Kennedy looks amazing but can't really afford that one