1857 seated liberty 25C with reverse cuds and profile doubling 0

[One onehundredth]

Hello:  

This is an interesting 1857 SL 25c… In particular the reverse, with a double chinned eagle, cuds in the eagles mouth looking like a swollen tongue , right wing doubling, cud’s on the bottom of “ICA” and “TES”, a filled denticle between “F”and “A”, and a few extra feathers to the right on the bottom of the eagle’s right leg.

I was curious if anyone has any thoughts on if this is known variety of seated liberty quarter or a one-off mint error?  
 

I’ve searched many online sources including ngc’s variety plus, and sorted through hundreds of high res images and haven’t come across this yet…
 

Kind thanks in advance!

Edited February 22, 2023 by One onehundredth

[berlineagle]

The 1857 flying Eagle cent was clashed with the 25 cent piece, is there clash mark in the fields. this may be the die failing after the clash.

[Sandon]

   Larry Briggs' The Comprehensive Encyclopedia of United States Liberty Seated Quarters, published in 1991 and out of print, lists 8 obverses and 7 reverses for the 1857 quarter and notes that due to the relatively high mintage of over 9.6 million pieces other, unlisted varieties exist.  The closest (not very) match to your reverse would be Briggs's Reverse A, which is described as having "[h]eavy die rust pits within lettering of entire legend" (no photo). The obverse of your coin doesn't match the description of Obverse 1 with which Reverse A is said to be paired and doesn't clearly match any of the other described obverses either. The reverse doesn't match the description or photo of Reverse F, the die clashed with the reverse of a Flying Eagle cent, either.

   Your coin is probably a later die state and/or an unlisted variety. I've generally found it very difficult to attribute varieties of higher mintage issues from years 1837 and thereafter, as the mint had adopted the method of making dies made from hubs, leaving only dates and mint marks to be punched in by hand.

[VKurtB]

Doesn’t this coin look “way off” to anybody else. It’s screaming, “fake” to me. 

[Sandon]

@VKurtB--You could be right about this coin being counterfeit. Now that you mention it, Liberty's face does look somewhat "off", as do the eagle's face and what appears to be an overly prominent tongue.  However, the numerals, letters, and proportions look about right for a Very Fine or so Seated quarter of this era.  I've seen Seated coins with similar die chips or "cuds", though rarely as extensive as this. I suppose I discounted the possibility of its being a counterfeit because it is such a common issue in a common grade.  If you see a number of examples with similar anomalies suddenly appear, it's likely a modern Chinese fake. 

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:21 PM, VKurtB said:

Doesn’t this coin look “way off” to anybody else.

That was my first thought when I saw the OP, but I haven't had a chance to compare the coin in the OP to authenticated examples. 

[One onehundredth]

I hadn’t considered the possibility of a counterfeit, although now I’m more intrigued… the coin tests 90%silver, is within all the measurement specs of a 57 SLQ and doesn’t have that tell-tale “waxy” appearance / feel, but indeed counterfeits have become more prevalent across all denominations and with exacting precision.  I agree this example has many odd attributes and looking at it through that lens has opened my eyes! (No pun)

thank you all for your thoughts/ input 

best,

R

Edited February 23, 2023 by One onehundredth

[VKurtB]

Is it a good solid 6.25 grams?

[J P M]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:21 PM, VKurtB said:

Doesn’t this coin look “way off” to anybody else. It’s screaming, “fake” to me. 

The devices do not look right the letters are to puffed up not sharp and clean. The same with the dental it looks off. Just my opinion.

[powermad5000]

What disturbed me the most upon checking out the coin was that with that level of wear on the reverse (enough to wear the claws smooth, and the wear on the eagles face and wing tips, that the lines in the shield are not starting to blend together. When I looked at the obverse photo, there seems to me to be a lack of overall sharpness of details for an obverse that has a few stars near full definition on the west side. I am not sure if the position of date in varieties had moved closer to either the rim or to the rock, but after checking out a few photos, the dates in the genuine coins I viewed had the numerals placed closer to the rim, and the coin in question has the numerals closer to the rock. The weight might give a better indication of whether it is genuine or not, and why with just shy of 10,000,000 minted and if it were genuine would net about $200-250, but I am still skeptical about the coin in question. If not genuine, then maybe we are seeing another counterfeiting tack, higher mintage number and lower value to cause the buyer to be less suspicious and less likely to examine extremely thoroughly?

[powermad5000]

Looking again, the lettering in LIBERTY in the shield on the obverse doesn't look right to me either.

[J P M]

 

On 2/24/2023 at 4:02 AM, powermad5000 said:

higher mintage number and lower value to cause the buyer to be less suspicious and less likely to examine extremely thoroughly?

I don't think the amount is as much a factor any more. If it is worth over $100-200 it is still only penny's on the dollar to make a fake. 

[Sandon]

   Actually, an 1857 Seated quarter lists $55 in VF, $90 in XF uncertified in Coin World.  I suppose it would still be worth counterfeiting, especially if mass produced. (A contemporary counterfeit made to pass as a quarter is generally a crude, base metal affair.) This one seems to have a VF obverse and an XF reverse, but it's not unusual for Seated coins to grade differently on each side.  The only thing that really looks unusual to me is the extra metal on various parts of the reverse that prompted the original poster to begin this topic.