1880 Morgan 0

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

My friend sent me the coin below and I was wondering if picture is good enough to if it was cleaned (I don't want to buy coin but we disagree on dipping and cleaning LOL) ? If not I will try to get better pictures.

Thanx  

 

[RWB]

Photos are too fuzzy to help much. These suggest an ordinary 1880-O dollar. Better photos will help a lot.

[Coinbuf]

Too out to focus to be able to see if there are any hairlines on the coin that would suggest a cleaning, I would bet that it has been dipped at some time in the past to be that blast white.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

Agreed that pics are too blurry in order to tell much, but it does have the appearance of having been dipped.

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Thank all for response. This friend is over 80 and has been collecting for 50 years but obvious his eyes aren't as good as they use to be but the issue is he says all coins that old would be dipped which is different from cleaning. I'm confused - I feel that dipped coins will be detected by TPG's ?? He's a good guy but I brought a 1928 Peace a couple years ago from him that he thought was a 62 but came back AU - cleaned. Lost 75-100 bucks after resale LOL  

[RWB]

If you're going to buy/sell coins, you must learn how to evaluate and grade coins, quickly and reliably. Join ANA and take the grading class for starters.

[Sandon]

   Advise your friend that nowadays a coin that has been carefully but noticeably "dipped" but still shows much original luster may still receive a numerical grade but will lose points. A coin that has an unnaturally bright or "washed out" appearance like this 1880-O from too long or repeated "dippings" will be details graded as "cleaned".

  Collectors now prefer coins that are toned, even with the unattractive yellow or brown toning formerly known as "tarnish", to coins that have been "dipped." While many coins were "dipped" by collectors and dealers in past decades, there were coins that remained untouched in original rolls or bags or that otherwise avoided "dipping" or other forms of abuse. It is from these sources that most higher-grade coins in certified holders originate.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Sandon

[powermad5000]

Better photos would help to better answer your question, but from what I can tell in your photos, the coin you have has an unnatural surface to me. Dipped is still cleaned, cleaned is still not good. And any of the reputable TPG's are going to know whether or not a coin has been cleaned. You won't be able to "pull one over" on them. You learned a lesson on the Peace dollar you mentioned. Don't make the same mistake with this coin.

[EagleRJO]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:54 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

... the issue is he says all coins that old would be dipped which is different from cleaning. I'm confused - I feel that dipped coins will be detected by TPG's ??

"Dipping" involves submerging the coin in an acid solution to remove tarnish ("toning" nowadays) and brighten the coin.  Cleaning involves using solutions and mechanical means to remove dirt and grime from a coin.  Some consider that dipping a coin also cleans it, but that's not really the purpose of dipping a coin, and the PCG$ grading code 92 for cleaning specifically excludes that, stating "Dipping (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning ..."

Also note per your question that if a coin has been dipped or cleaned, even if it's not clearly visible to an average collector, there is always a chance the TPG will detect this and assign a Details designation.  There are some coins that are given a Details designation by a TPG where I and other collectors are left scratching our heads as to why the coin was designated as "Details".

Many older coins were "dipped" at some point in the past, as a while ago collectors wanted the blast white appearance.  However, many older coins with collections, still in bank bags or rolls, or with dealers that didn't agree it was good practice are still out in the wild that have not been dipped.

On 2/17/2023 at 9:37 PM, RWB said:

If you're going to buy/sell coins, you must learn how to evaluate and grade coins, quickly and reliably. Join ANA and take the grading class for starters.

Sound advice.  Learning how to evaluate and grade coins is the most difficult and the most important thing to learn before buying coins.  I have been working on that for quite a while now, and still have difficulty differentiating the mint state grades.  I would start with circulated grades and then work into mint state coins, initially using just the NGC adjectival grades (e.g. VF or XF) and then later numerical grades.

In addition to the ANA grading class, I would recommend getting the ANA Grading Standards and watching as many ANA eLearning vids on their website and ANA YouTube vids related to grading you can get your hands on, as well as PCG$ CoinFacts for comparison coins.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:54 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

I feel that dipped coins will be detected by TPG's

Nope. I have “dipped” in Kodak Stain Remover S-10 (a very slow and mild substitute for EZest) at LEAST 100 coins with unattractive toning. Their grades have ranged from MS 62- MS/PF 68. All at NGC.  A few of them Cameos, too. I gave an ANA convention Money Talk about using the Kodak formula. 
 

I have given six or seven ANA convention talks, one under their older name - Numismatic Theater talks. Due to having given a talk at Rosemont in every year of their Lincoln rectangular medal run; 2011, 2013, 2014, and 2015, I BELIEVE I am the only person with the entire run of eight such medals - 1 for sale in each year, plus the full set of speaker medals. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by VKurtB

[CIII]

Very interesting.  I don't think I would chance dipping any nice coin.  I'm sure it works as you say, however.

[VKurtB]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:14 PM, Tigerbait said:

Very interesting.  I don't think I would chance dipping any nice coin.  I'm sure it works as you say, however.

I would never use the popular commercial product - faaaaar too harsh. It uses sulfuric acid. Kodak S-10 uses citric acid, the very same acid used in cooking and pickling. The other active ingredient, thiourea, is identical. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by VKurtB

[EagleRJO]

On 2/20/2023 at 2:38 PM, VKurtB said:

I have “dipped” in Kodak Stain Remover S-10 (a very slow and mild substitute for EZest)

Interesting.  Where can you get that.  I might try it out on a few junk coins I have just out of curiosity.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:01 PM, EagleRJO said:

Interesting.  Where can you get that.  I might try it out on a few junk coins I have just out of curiosity.

One source of the formula is here:

https://www.digitaltruth.com/data/formula.php?FormulaID=188
 

 

[CIII]

Boy, you don't see that thiourea much for breakfast anymore, do you? :-)

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:33 PM, Tigerbait said:

Boy, you don't see that thiourea much for breakfast anymore, do you? :-)

Thiourea has a VERRRRRY important property. It very efficiently breaks the chemical bond between silver ions and sulfide ions, actually -ide, -ite, and -ate. The sulfur can then precipitate out and the silver ion can “rejoin” the coin. It is the basic science of “dipping”.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:32 PM, VKurtB said:

The sulfur can then precipitate out and the silver ion can “rejoin” the coin. It is the basic science of “dipping”.

So not an ion exchange? Is your talk on the subject available online anywhere?

[VKurtB]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:39 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

So not an ion exchange? Is your talk on the subject available online anywhere?

Dunno. I know it wasn’t in the inventory of cointelevision.com.

[VKurtB]

On 2/21/2023 at 8:33 PM, Tigerbait said:

Boy, you don't see that thiourea much for breakfast anymore, do you? :-)

The last few years has seen thiourea prices go a little nuts.