Frustration with PCGS to NGC crossover results! 1 1

[Mark46]

1st of all, I’m fairly satisfied with my grading experiences with submitting raw coins, and I’ve been fairly decent at estimating what grades I’ll receive,(I’m even guessing a bit low sometimes)

Now the frustration. I’ve submitted at least 4 PCGS coins in the holder for crossover, ZERO crossed over.

latest one went from scheduled for grading to finalized all in half a day!!?!?
I’m assuming this is going to NOT be good news.

To further my frustration, I cracked out a PCGS MS 63 Peace Dollar, submitted it. It came Back MS 64.

VERY Happy and pleasantly surprised.

SO is their a bias against PCGS grades? I thought PCGS is one of the best! (Along with NGC)

Also my submissions were ALL MS 64 coins, ( except the cracked out one)

Am I doing something wrong?

Sorry for the long rant, just frustrated and wondering if I’d be happier switching to PCGS
 

 

[KaileeS CS]

Hello @Mark46, thank you for contacting NGC. We do not have any bias when grading PCGS coins, we grade them as best as we can while they are in the PCGS holder. My only thought on this is that our graders may be weary or cautious of cracking out coins we're not completely confident will cross based on what they can see of the coin while it's in a PCGS slab. Again this is speculation on my part, but the long and short of it is that we treat every coin the same. Plus, we'd love to put your coin in an NGC holder if possible! We're sorry for the frustrations you've been experiencing, hopefully, the next few CrossOver coins you submit will go a bit better.

Please kindly let us know if we can help with anything further.

 

 

[Mactanboy]

Mark46,

Getting coins/medals graded can be frustrating. Like you most of us have received coins back that are "body bagged" or not graded and cross-overs from PCGS to NGC is not always approved. I try to remember that grading is an inexact science, but like you I am often disappointed.

Several years ago I submitted over 6 months about 120 coins already graded by PCGS and ANACS. Nearly all came back within +/-1 grade. That is, most graded MS 64 came back exactly that. Two coins that were graded by ANACS were deemed "cleaned" and one coin graded MS-64 Red by ANACS was upgraded to MS 65 Red by NGC. All in all, the grading was close to that of other third-party graders.

Good luck with your submissions!

[Coinbuf]

I have read and heard countless stories of coins that graded the same or higher when cracked out even though those coins failed to cross, and that is for both P to N or N to P.   Both of the services will tell you that they are very conservative because they have in the past had to eat some very expensive coins when a problem was discovered only after the cross was approved and the old competitor holder cracked open.

There is truth and merit to this concern, however, it is my belief that both P and N have do have a bias when it comes to crossovers.   That is of course just my opinion but if you look at the crossover stats on the PCGS webpage you would see they have a rather low success rate as well.   So you might be just as, or even more disappointed if you choose to only use PCGS and try and cross all your coins to P plastic.

I refuse to play the crossover game anymore, just not worth the angst and issues.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Mark46]

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the input.

Today my fear with the latest crossover was confirmed… “Did not crossover”

After having zero success, I’m done with this crossover BS!

live and learn I guess.

I might crack out a few lower priced coins and submit just see what happens.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Mark46
Adding to the post

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:14 PM, Coinbuf said:

I have read and heard countless stories of coins that graded the same or higher when cracked out even though those coins failed to cross, and that is for both P to N or N to P. 

I'm a bit lost and having never submitted a coin and not sure I understand cracking-out completely and crossing completly.....please bear with me. 

Isn't the purpose of crossing a coin to submit it to the other TPG and get a HIGHER grade?  So why would "coins that graded the same or higher when cracked out" fail to cross ?  If they graded HIGHER (maybe not if the same), why wouldn't they cross ?   You got the higher grade, right ?

I have a PCGS MS-63...I send it to NGC....they say it's an MS-64....they put it in an NGC holder.  It crossed, right ?

Am I getting this right or wrong, folks ?

[NickiO CS]

Hello @GoldFinger1969,

The final determination to crack out (remove a coin from its current holder) is always at the graders' discretion. When the graders are confident that the coin will grade the same or higher, based on the in-holder evaluation, the coin will be cracked out, graded and encapsulated. If the graders are not confident that the coin will at least retain the same grade, it will be returned as-is (when you have chosen the same grade or higher option). Our goal is to ensure that we adhere to your request and that we do not crack out your coin if it may receive a lower grade when evaluated raw. 

Keeping that in mind, while rare, it possible that if given the opportunity to grade the coin raw and out of the holder, that the coin will grade at the same grade or higher. 

I do hope you are finding more joy than frustration in your new hobby! If you have any other questions, do not hesitate to ask. 

Regards, 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:58 AM, NickiO CS said:

Keeping that in mind, while rare, it possible that if given the opportunity to grade the coin raw and out of the holder, that the coin will grade at the same grade or higher. 

Thanks Nicki, that clears things up a bit.  Does viewing a coin in-hand out of the holder REALLY make a difference in determining if it will grade higher (or at least the same) if you view it in a holder ?

I would think being able to see it in-person (as opposed to from pics) is the important thing, that being in the holder shouldn't matter that much. 

But I guess I'm wrong. 

[Coinbuf]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm a bit lost and having never submitted a coin and not sure I understand cracking-out completely and crossing completly.....please bear with me. 

Isn't the purpose of crossing a coin to submit it to the other TPG and get a HIGHER grade?  So why would "coins that graded the same or higher when cracked out" fail to cross ?  If they graded HIGHER (maybe not if the same), why wouldn't they cross ?   You got the higher grade, right ?

I have a PCGS MS-63...I send it to NGC....they say it's an MS-64....they put it in an NGC holder.  It crossed, right ?

Am I getting this right or wrong, folks ?

There are many reasons why collectors choose to crossover coins, higher grades are seldom the main reason.   While it does happen now and then it has been my experience that the two TPG's do not very often award higher grades on crossovers.   As you have never done so the submission form allows you to choose, cross at grade (or higher) or any grade which allows the TPG to downgrade.

Collectors are a funny bunch and do things that, at least to me, seem odd.   There are several members of the PCGS forum that claim they are so happy to have a coin out of NGC plastic and into PCGS plastic that they are fine with taking a point (or more) downgrade on a crossover and choose the cross at any grade every time.   Now remember that this is talk on a chat board so I take that type of bravado with a grain of salt, and I would not be all that surprised if some of that is just a way to suck up to whomever.   Often, they claim the coin is worth more in the marketplace in the lower PCGS grade than the NGC holder.   There is no denying the fact that often PCGS graded coins do sell for more than the identical grade coins in NGC holders even when both have CAC beans.   That is a verifiable fact and reality of the current market, and some do a crossover simply because they dislike the white prongs of the NGC holder.

Another big reason for crossovers is for registry reasons, remember that PCGS does not allow any other TPG graded coins in their registry.   So, if you want to play in the PCGS registry sandbox you either cross your other TPG graded coins or sell those coins and buy new PCGS graded ones.   While less often cited there are a few collectors that participate in the NGC registry that want all their coins to be in NGC plastic for the NGC registry too.

So, attempting a crossover for a higher grade is actually quite low on the list of reasons for a crossover.   If you talk to any of the crackout specialists, they will tell you it is far more advantageous to crack and send a coin in raw if you really feel the coin is deserving of a higher grade vs the crossover route.

As to why coins grade the same or higher when submitted raw when those same coins failed on crossover, well that is kinda like asking what happened to Kennedy.   There is the "official" story and then there are lots of opinions, but no real facts are known.

[GoldFinger1969]

CB, thanks for a really informative and useful response.  Much appreciated. 

On 2/16/2023 at 11:14 AM, Coinbuf said:

There is no denying the fact that often PCGS graded coins do sell for more than the identical grade coins in NGC holders even when both have CAC beans.

THAT is very interesting, I never thought about it.  CAC is basically saying that both coins are properly graded and strong for the grade and yet domestic U.S. coins via PCGS command a premium for the same grade, and from what I have read ancients/foreign coins in NGC holders get one, too. 

On 2/16/2023 at 11:14 AM, Coinbuf said:

 If you talk to any of the crackout specialists, they will tell you it is far more advantageous to crack and send a coin in raw if you really feel the coin is deserving of a higher grade vs the crossover route.

I get that...and yet....if a grader (especially a newer, less-experienced grader) sees a coin in a holder that is MS-63 he probably subconsciously (or consciously) knows that the coin is AT LEAST a 63 and it's most likely a 63 or 64.   Send that same coin in raw and you would think that the grader may feel at first glance it's anywhere from an MS62-64, a wider range since he's going in blind.

But from what you said, it actually happens that a coin in a TPG holder with a grade doesn't cross but send it in raw and it gets a higher grade.  Fascinating....

One thing....all the coin doctoring we read about and the skew in the ranks of low-pop coins would indicate that many people -- maybe mostly dealers -- are playing the "Crackout Game" and trying to get 1-2 grade increments.  Lots of coins that had low-pops of 1 or 2 or 10 coins 10-15 years ago....suddenly have 5 or 10 or 15 coins today. 

[Grommes]

The premium for PCGS graded coins compared to NGC graded coins with CAC beans:
You are correct; it is interesting to observe that PCGS graded coins are often more expensive than coins of similar denomination in NGC holdings, even with CAC beans. This difference in market preference can be due to a variety of factors, including historical perceptions, market dynamics, and collector preferences. Different coin grading companies may perceive the market differently, and some collectors or investors may favor one company over another, which affects pricing. But there is one more thing that helps me take a little break from everything, it is new Canadian online casinos, I even found a project https://casinosanalyzer.ca/online-casinos/new-casinos where there is already information on proven games. The advantages of sending coins in raw form to get higher grades compared to the crossover route:
Your observation is correct. When the coin is already in the grader, the grader has a preconceived notion of its grade range. This could potentially affect the outcome of the crossover process. On the other hand, presenting the coin in its raw form allows the grader to take a fresh look at it, and if the coin does deserve a higher grade, it has a better chance of getting it.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Grommes

[Mark46]

A follow up to my original post.

I have had very satisfactory results since my frustration laden original posts.

I’ve submitted older NGC holders coins to be reholderd  & regraded, with satisfactory results, also carefully selected PCGS broken out and submitted as raw.

I know every grade will not always be to my liking, however I’m happy with NGC.

 

[powermad5000]

Imho, I tend to believe that PCGS coins are many times overgraded, especially when evaluating the coin in the holder and comparing it to other coins graded the same or lesser by other TPG's. Just saying..............