Liberty Head Double Eagles 0

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/2/2023 at 2:41 PM, World Colonial said:

The overwhelming majority of coins are common or very common.  This includes US "key dates" and supposedly ""low mintage" coins.  "Low mintage" is almost always only low relatively, not actually low, not when the survival rate is "noticeable".

For Liberty Head DEs, low mintage = low survival rate = low condition rarity.....for most years.  Outside of a few coins with lots of survivors, lots more LH's are condition rarity than for Saints.

The hysteria surrounding Carson City's has also led to skyrocketing prices for those coins and dragged up lots of other LH's.

[Henri Charriere]

[Always liked the Carson City's. What I don't know is why C was assigned to Charlotte and CC to Carson City, whereas D was assigned to both Dahlonega and Denver.] 🤔  

[World Colonial]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For Liberty Head DEs, low mintage = low survival rate = low condition rarity.....for most years.  Outside of a few coins with lots of survivors, lots more LH's are condition rarity than for Saints.

The hysteria surrounding Carson City's has also led to skyrocketing prices for those coins and dragged up lots of other LH's.

There are only a few with actually low mintages.  The mintages mostly appear low by (somewhat) contemporary standards.  Sure, a few thousand or somewhat above it is low.  Tens of thousands such as for the 01-S quarter is not low.  72,000 isn't a small number; it's large.  (Try counting it.)  Same idea for my primary interest which is from the 18th century.

I agree the survival rates are often low and more so in a specific quality.  There also aren't that many actual collectors of this coinage, not what I would call actual collectors.  The primary difference between "collecting" now and recently versus the earlier periods you cited is almost certainly actually predominantly financially motivated buying for "investment". 

It's mostly the same as I told you before.  Recent collectors in their "sophistication" didn't miraculously discover the merits of this coinage through a collective epiphany.  The metal price is a lot higher but prior collectors also didn't care about quality differences reflected in TPG labels.  If so many of them somehow thought that 20th century key dates were "scarce" or "rare" (with much) higher mintages, they obviously knew these coins are a lot scarcer.  But without financially motivated buying, there weren't enough affluent collectors who cared.  The more expensive 20th century "key" dates weren't cheap by 1965.  The price differences were just much narrower due to what I am telling you.

CC coinage?  Yes, all the low(er) mintage coins are a lot more expensive now, not just gold.  Look at the Liberty Seated denominations.  It's also similar for "C" and "D" gold, somewhat at least.  Subjectively, I'd attribute this to more interest in actual collecting, as opposed to simply because of a low mintage and a number on a label.  It's the "history" connection.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/3/2023 at 8:10 AM, World Colonial said:

It's the "history" connection.

Yup, look at all the 1-time buyers of the 1857-S or other coins from the SSCA 20+ years ago.

Of course, a small percentage will expand their horizons and take up collecting in some fashion.  Happened to me, though I admit I am the exception.

 

[VKurtB]

On 6/3/2023 at 9:15 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yup, look at all the 1-time buyers of the 1857-S or other coins from the SSCA 20+ years ago.

Of course, a small percentage will expand their horizons and take up collecting in some fashion.  Happened to me, though I admit I am the exception.

 

Also the Saddle Ridge hoard. It’s all about the marketing, the hype. Including the special slab labels. /nearly fatal eye roll

[World Colonial]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Also the Saddle Ridge hoard. It’s all about the marketing, the hype. Including the special slab labels. /nearly fatal eye roll

Same to some extent for Spanish colonial shipwreck coins.  In this instance, also glamorizing "pirate treasure", with some of these recoveries from a later period.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:40 PM, VKurtB said:

Also the Saddle Ridge hoard. It’s all about the marketing, the hype. Including the special slab labels. /nearly fatal eye roll

We don't hear that much about that find even though it's among the most recent and a pretty large one, too. 

 

[MorganMan]

On 6/2/2023 at 10:06 PM, Henri Charriere said:

[Always liked the Carson City's. What I don't know is why C was assigned to Charlotte and CC to Carson City, whereas D was assigned to both Dahlonega and Denver.] 🤔  

 

Probably because they were not named Denver City or Dahlonega City. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Approaching the end of the Bowers Liberty Double Eagle book.....I thought I would share some Liberty DE, DE, gold, and time period-specific notes of interest that I jotted down while reading the book.  It's most an eclectic, scatter-shot series of interesting factoids.  Hopefully, some of you find them interesting.  

I'll put them in sections the next few days or weeks (if it takes me that long to finish the last years of the book)....looks like 5 or 6 posts will do it though I still have 20 years to go to finish the book.  

• $20 DEs in 1850's and 1860's:  Only bankers ever saw this coin in any quantity from 1857 to 1865. Very few uncirculated coins were saved, and most existing today came from the famed Baltimore Hoard of over 3,600 U.S. gold coins found by two young boys in an empty cellar in May of 1934. All of the coins were dated between 1834 and 1856. The hoard included 317 Double Eagles—92 dated 1850 and one 1856-O.

• In general, Philadelphia coins from 1866 through 1872 are scarce, except the 1867—a hoard date that turned up in Europe in the early 1970s

• The San Francisco branch mint produced large quantities throughout the 1860s. Apparently many of these pieces were used for international transactions—both during and after the Civil War—as foreign governments were suspicious of U.S. currency at the time. Coins from this mint are frequently encountered in VF, XF, and AU condition, but mint state examples are quite elusive.

• Senator Thomas Benton of Missouri predicted that the double eagle would be in greater demand than the gold dollar. He was right; the double eagle denomination lasted eighty-five years to the gold dollar’s forty.

• Thomas Jefferson thought it would take 600 years to fill the Louisiana Purchase territories. 

• Steamships weighted about 1,000 tons (they would carry about 1-3 tons of gold).

• Increased gold supply didn’t prevent panics even during the height of DE minting and the California gold rush.

• The 1849 Double Eagle Proof had problems with striking….the obverse was too high for the coining machines of the day.

• Baldwin & Co. and other private minters of California gold could and were driven out of business by allegations of their coins being underweight.  You could then buy their coins at 10-20% below bullion value.  Often the allegations were false.

• 1853 was the peak year of California gold production at about $65 MM or just over 3 MM ounces

• 1854-S DEs from the Yankee Blade have stilting on coins, but the coins from the 8,000 foot depths from the SS Central America do NOT.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[dclxvi]

Just Got this one back from grading. MS65.

[GoldFinger1969]

Beautiful coin, DCL....

So you had it raw...where did you buy it originally ?

[dclxvi]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Beautiful coin, DCL....

So you had it raw...where did you buy it originally ?

I bought this coin in San Antonio over 40 years ago and kept it in a Capitol holder. I have been sending coins in for grading for the last 18 months. It is time to start letting some coins go so I felt that getting them graded would help the process.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:06 PM, dclxvi said:

I bought this coin in San Antonio over 40 years ago and kept it in a Capitol holder. I have been sending coins in for grading for the last 18 months. It is time to start letting some coins go so I felt that getting them graded would help the process.

Definitely will, which shows why people who had raw coins for decades will suddenlty submit for grading.

The MS-65 boosted the value over bullion by about how much, 25% ?

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:04 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

.... The MS-65 boosted the value over bullion by about how much, 25% ?

Never gave the actual percentages much thought but it is clear that the higher up you go on the Mint State coins, their values, in many instances, rise exponentially. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:12 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Never gave the actual percentages much thought but it is clear that the higher up you go on the Mint State coins, their values, in many instances, rise exponentially. 

Of course, the rise is exponential as you go higher because of the registry game.

In the case of Liberty Head DEs, there are more years without many coins compared to Saint-years, but for the commons like the 1904 and 1907 the increase in certifications over the decades is what fascinates me.

Edited June 24, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Of course, the rise is exponential as you go higher because of the registry game.

In the case of Liberty Head DEs, there are more years without many coins compared to Saint-years, but for the commons like the 1904 and 1907 the increase in certifications over the decades is what fascinates me.

They continue to arrive on these shores from their lengthy European and South American exiles to avoid the melting furnaces. When I was in Switzerland in 1978 and 1980, U.S. gold coins were available on a walk-in basis at nearly every Swiss bank branch in the entirety of Zürich. They were just sitting there ready for retail sale. Then premiums above current melt were minuscule.

Edited June 25, 2023 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:54 PM, VKurtB said:

They continue to arrive on these shores from their lengthy European and South American exiles to avoid the melting furnaces. When I was in Switzerland in 1978 and 1980, U.S. gold coins were available on a walk-in basis at nearly every Swiss bank branch in the entirety of Zürich. They were just sitting there ready for retail sale. Then premiums above current melt were minuscule.

No doubt, Kurt....but 1980 was EONS ago in numsimatic terms.  QDB told the story about being able to buy 100,000 Double Eagles from a Swiss Bank pretty much at $35/oz. in the early-1960's.  There must have been millions available, the bulk of what we have today.    

Are U.S. gold coins available from those SAME foreign banks today ?  I doubt it, certainly not in the same quantity, though I have no doubt that they are still finding strays here and there in SDBs (i.e., Fairmont). 

Different banking and gold culture in Europe, since they hosted 2 World Wars in the last 100 years or so...currencies and stock exchanges were wiped out...hyperinflation...empires and countries disappeared entirely.  Nothing like that in the U.S.

[VKurtB]

On 6/25/2023 at 12:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No doubt, Kurt....but 1980 was EONS ago in numsimatic terms.  QDB told the story about being able to buy 100,000 Double Eagles from a Swiss Bank pretty much at $35/oz. in the early-1960's.  There must have been millions available, the bulk of what we have today.    

Are U.S. gold coins available from those SAME foreign banks today ?  I doubt it, certainly not in the same quantity, though I have no doubt that they are still finding strays here and there in SDBs (i.e., Fairmont). 

Different banking and gold culture in Europe, since they hosted 2 World Wars in the last 100 years or so...currencies and stock exchanges were wiped out...hyperinflation...empires and countries disappeared entirely.  Nothing like that in the U.S.

Not until NOW, anyway. You never see a nation's collapse when it's happening, do you?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

Not until NOW, anyway. You never see a nation's collapse when it's happening, do you?

Well, that's a matter of opinion.  We have problems (countries ALWAYS do) but I think we are still the best house in a mediocre neighborhood.

Warren Buffet said it best:  never bet against America.

[VKurtB]

On 6/25/2023 at 10:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, that's a matter of opinion.  We have problems (countries ALWAYS do) but I think we are still the best house in a mediocre neighborhood.

Warren Buffet said it best:  never bet against America.

Not until a couple of years ago, no.

[Henri Charriere]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

Not until NOW, anyway. You never see a nation's collapse when it's happening, do you?

[V.P.:  Collapse? Nyet! Coup? Nyet!  Quid pro quo? Nyet! This is all, how you say, Western propaganda.]  🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

More interesting tidbits from the Bowers book "The Gilded Age Of Coinage":

• 1858 was the year when numismatics started to take off as a hobby…probably spurred by the introduction of the 1857 Flying Eagle Cent which replaced a copper cent in use for decades.

• 1859 Changes to LH DE:  JBL initials clear of hair locks….LLIBERTY is now LIBERTY (no punch-over as from 1850-58)….and the star is pointing at the denticle instead of the space (very minute change).  Reverse Die glitches galore.  Master die missing left-side of crossbar in “A” for STATES.

• Restriking of older coins and rare varieties as long as the dies were still around was an annual occurrence….snd sometimes they mixed-and-matched obverse and reverse that were not the original pairings.  Was done secretly by getting Mint workers; probably getting $$$ for doing it under-the-table.

• Hunts Merchant Magazine of 1859 notes coin collecting mania of last year to all:  rich and poor…. male and female…. young and old.  Dismissive of the “fad.”

• $134 in Northern $$$ for $100 in gold/silver and $300 in Confederate dollars in late-1862.

• February 1863:  $173 in Legal Tender Notes (LTN) to get $100 in gold coin……$123 LTN after Gettysburg in August 1863 ….$1,500 in CSA monies but by Dec 15th it took $2,100 as the Confederacy floundered militarily.

• Central Pacific and Union Pacific got $16K for every mile of track on the plains from the government…$32K through intermountains….and $48K through mountains.

• The saying “Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead” was really “Damn the torpedoes !!  Four bells.  Captain Drayton, go ahead.  Jouett, full speed !”  

• Jan 1864….$152 U.S. to buy $100 in gold coins…after National Bank Act of 1864, $285 in July 1864.  CSA was $2,000 in July 1864.

• Usage of gold and silver – esp. Double Eagles – was very pronounced out West in the 1860’s and 1870’s.

• Took until 1876 for paper currency to achieve parity with gold/silver.

• By 1873, gold in terms of paper was in a range of $109 to $114.

• Median unskilled wage at $418 per YEAR from 1872 to 1900.  Gold Standard in action !  Also why few DEs were held by the populace: a single DE was over 2 weeks of wages.

• Maxwell House Coffee was named after a Nashville hotel.

• 10,000 coin collectors estimated in 1883….but then as many as 50,000 after Liberty Nickel looked like the $5 Gold Half Eagle and the old ones became very valuable as the “V” was also struck with “CENTS.”

• $1 MM face value of Morgan Dollars in 1,000 coin/8-oz. duck bags took 250 cubic feet to store; other smaller silver denominations in $1 MM took 150 cf; $1 MM in gold coins took 17 cf.  Storing all the unused Morgans was a big logistical problem.

• 1885:  Big year of change as Philadelphia superintendent, coiner, and director who had promoted/profited from restrikes, rare die combinations, patterns, etc.…..all resigned or retired.  Most of these patterns were sold to Philly dealer J.W. Haseltine.  Final bow was proof sets made out of aluminum.   The SanFran super was suspended for “shaving” gold within the tolerance level and keeping it.  Silver kept piling up at all the mints.

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

More little factoids and interesting nuggets from QDB's Liberty Head DE book:

• 1887:  The Treasury had $182 MM in gold coins…..National Banks had $99 MM…..circulation/private hands were $245 MM.  Gold exports were $3.6 MM and imports were $5.9 MM.  Watch imports/export gold numbers change bigtime as financial stress hits !

• Grandfather of John W. Garrett (1979 coin sale) was T. Harrison Garret who perished in a boating accident in 1888.

• 1890:  Stress in economy and global finance apparent, plus fear of silver payback (William Jennings Bryan !) for foreign bond holders.  June-August 1889 saw net exports of gold of $14 MM….January 1890 through August 1891 net export amount was $75 MM.

• Stirrings of opposition to the lack of artistic design in America’s silver and gold coinage started about 1880.

• 1891:  ASG, Charles Barber chief engraver., and Boston Engraver Henry Mitchell met in 1891 to look over new designs.  They largely stunk.  Mint Director Leech called it “too wretched a failure.”

• 1892 July 31:   Treasury had $357 MM in gold coins……National Banks @ 7.5 MM…..circulation/private hands at $49.4 MM

• Recently-freed black slaves liked Morgan Silver Dollars as they distrusted paper currency.

• European banks and investors suffered losses in South American securities and Argentina in the early-1890’s so they converted their U.S. holdings to gold.  HUGE withdrawals !

• When Nevada started to drop in silver production in the post-Bonanza years, Colorado (24 MM ounces annually), Montana (17 MM), and Idaho (8 MM) picked up the slack.  Ditto gold with Cripple Creek west of Denver. 

• William Wrigley Jr. sold chewing gum as an add-in to baking soda and soaps.  Eventually, he realized there was more interest in the gum. 

• 1892:  there were 4,400 millionaires in the U.S.  In 1840, there were under 20.

• 1893…..Treasury had $73.6 MM in gold….National Banks had $151.2 MM….circulated/private holdings @ 281.9 MM….imports = $6.1 MM, exports = $101.8 MM !!

• 500 banks failed in 1893.

• Robert Garret, son of T. Garrison Garrett and father of John Garrett, won America’s 1st Olympic Gold Medal ever in 1896...in discus throwing.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Nutmeg Coin]

Thanks for sharing the factoids from the QDB book, I always found him to be a top notch numismatist and competent writer.

 

Until later in the 1990s gold double eagles were not collected so much by condition as the grading system took off.  Type two DEs took off in price and interest in the late 90s and on.   It was Anthony Swiatek I believe who told me that as I didn't get into the hobby until about that time.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:49 PM, Nutmeg Coin said:

Thanks for sharing the factoids from the QDB book, I always found him to be a top notch numismatist and competent writer. 

Glad you liked them, Nutmeg !   Like I said, this coffee table book (where's Kramer !!??  ) has probably about 1/3rd of the book on Liberty Head DEs, gold, gold-related mining, etc...and the rest is the financial and economic happenings of the day, plus little trivial things like years when some famous companies commenced operations or the little things about Maxwell House Coffee and Wrigley Chewing Gum.

Bowers IS a good writer.  I found the first third of the book a bit difficult to get into, but after a while the style grows on you and the focus on gold holdings by the Treasury, National Banks, and the public a good reference point especially as it pretty much was mentioned every year after about 1880.  Would have probably been good to have that for the earlier years, too (but maybe data not available ?).

[Nutmeg Coin]

The Fuljienz/Winter book on double eagles is more a sales book, they gave it to collectors free of charge and it is useful for beginning collectors to get a ranking on rarity.   

Waves of hoards have come out in the last 25 years changing the population figures, shipwrecks, bank hoards from Europe, etc..   Definitely a lot of change in recent history.

[RWB]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:24 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

On 6/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

Not until NOW, anyway. You never see a nation's collapse when it's happening, do you?

Collapse of a social order or economy is usually known to contemporaries. That kind of disruption is cumulative and the process continues when members/leaders either ignore the evident or have no means to remediate causes. Ask the Maya, or Minoans, or Sumerians, or Weimar Republic Germans, etc., etc.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/25/2023 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

Not until NOW, anyway. You never see a nation's collapse when it's happening, do you?

In the past, no, because we didn't have the data set.  Now, we do -- often in minutes or hours what used to take YEARS or decades to accumulate.

For instance, the working-age population of China is going to shrink from 925 MM to 750 MM (maybe less) by 2050.  This is a MAJOR headwind for China, one we've known about for decades thanks to their "1-Child" policy.  Similarly, we know about the demographic problems in the EU and UK.  

India has a surging labor force the next few decades, but regional vs. federal jurisdicational issues and government regulatory interference might make them squander the 2020's and 2030's like they did previous decades.

Yes, the U.S. has problems -- but we are the cleanest house in a dirty neighborhood.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yes, the U.S. has problems -- but we are the cleanest house in a dirty neighborhood

The US also has a long, treasured history of renewal of our population demographics -- It's called immigration. Except for Native American populations, not one American family originated here. Plus, American immigrants are the folks who will take enormous risk - literally everything - for a mere chance to have a better future. They bring new ideas, new vigor, new understanding, and new challenges for a society that is built on constant change and renewal.

[Nutmeg Coin]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:33 PM, RWB said:

The US also has a long, treasured history of renewal of our population demographics -- It's called immigration. Except for Native American populations, not one American family originated here. Plus, American immigrants are the folks who will take enormous risk - literally everything - for a mere chance to have a better future. They bring new ideas, new vigor, new understanding, and new challenges for a society that is built on constant change and renewal.

Sounds like very desperate and scared people...and of course every employer wants workers who will ask no questions, that won't report illegal, immoral or criminal behavior and will do all they're told and are easily replaceable. And if the workers are illegal aliens, that can be a subset of human trafficking.  With more and more of them, our society becomes increasingly unstable.  We saw in the 1990s how local tech workers were displaced by immigrants with lower wages for those who were able to accept them.  The arguments that we can't find people to do the jobs of immigrants just isn't true if you have facilitators who can make it work.