Liberty Head Double Eagles 0

[zadok]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

In the past, no, because we didn't have the data set.  Now, we do -- often in minutes or hours what used to take YEARS or decades to accumulate.

For instance, the working-age population of China is going to shrink from 925 MM to 750 MM (maybe less) by 2050.  This is a MAJOR headwind for China, one we've known about for decades thanks to their "1-Child" policy.  Similarly, we know about the demographic problems in the EU and UK.  

India has a surging labor force the next few decades, but regional vs. federal jurisdicational issues and government regulatory interference might make them squander the 2020's and 2030's like they did previous decades.

Yes, the U.S. has problems -- but we are the cleanest house in a dirty neighborhood.

 

...yeah, but who is going to clean the house?....

[RWB]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:43 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

Sounds like very desperate and scared people.

Desperate, yes. Scared, yes. Hopeful, yes. They are the ones risking everything to try. It is a one-way move from generations of the known, to a future on unknowns. They are the strongest and though many fail or are exploited, their presence and progeny push the American economy and society into innovation and productive change.

Illegal immigration is a definition, not a motivation.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:43 AM, Nutmeg Coin said:

The arguments that we can't find people to do the jobs of immigrants just isn't true if you have facilitators who can make it work.  

Legal vs. illegal immigration is a separate debate.  Totally agree.

Wages RISING also attracts (quality) workers to open jobs.  That's the natural order of things, rather than continually bringing in cheaper labor or outsourcing.  Covid showed us the risks in that and you see it now with all the chip embargoes.

Chinese wage inflation is only going to get WORSE.  As their labor-age population shrinks, wages probably rise closer to 8% a year from 4%, meaning wage costs double in 9 years instead of 18 years.   That is HUGE for companies which build factories with 20-40 year expected lifespans as the costs are now much higher in years 20-40. 

It's why you see the shift to Vietnam, Thailand, and Malaysia and other SE Asian countries.  Or even Eastern Europe.  And of course, re-sourcing back in the States.

OK....back to LH DEs.....

Edited July 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Final interesting nuggets and factoids from QDB's Liberty Head DE book.  If you want more, you'll have to get the book ! 

• John M. Clapp, Pennsylvania oil man, orders complete current coins from all the U.S. Mints in 1893 – Philadelphia, Carson City, and San Francisco – the earliest recorded focus on mint markings by a collector.

• While artistry on coins was lacking, on “Educational Notes” for $1, $2, and $5 in 1895 currency.....they had beautiful workmanship.

• 1897:  Klondike Strike in Canadian Yukon and Alaska brought new gold ounces to U.S.

• 1897:  Treasury held $152 MM in gold coin…..National Banks held $188 MM…..circulated/private hands about $240 MM.  Exports were $23.6 MM and imports were $57.7 MM.

• 1899:  First time gold coinage was over $100 MM at $111 MM.  Cripple Creek, Klondike, and other areas pushed it over that threshold.

• 1899:  Treasury had $257 MM in gold…..NatBanks had $203 MM…..circulation/private hands $293 MM.  All gold in America was just under $900 MM.

• ANA blamed stamp collecting for the drop-off in coin interest.

• William Jennings Bryan lost to President McKinley, repeat of his 1896 loss, ending the Free Silver movement. 

• March 14, 1900:  Gold Standard Act passed.  Repealed by FDR 33 years later. 

• 1900:  Treasury had $328 MM and the entire country had $989 MM in gold coinage.  $8.7 MM in gold coins imported, $30.7 MM exported.

• The Double Eagle was the international standard of commerce….often melted in England but bagged in other European countries and stored in bank vaults.

• From 1862-79, the governments custom revenues were collected in gold.  Gold collected was $633 MM and currency received was $526 MM a 20% premium.

• 1901:  New Philadelphia Mint opens.  Can hold $112 MM in MSDs.  Over 1,500 tons of steel were used to construct the vaults.

• 1902:  Colorado (1.2 MM ounces), California (800K ounces), Alaska (400K ounces), and South Dakota (336K ounces) were the leading gold-producing states.   The Klondike region continued to produce, though not at the top level.

• The term "Teddy Bear" was created.  A bear cub was strapped to a tree so President Teddy Roosevelt could get a photo-op as they couldn't get a real bear in a hunt. 

• 1904:  $233 MM in DEs were struck (6.3 MM in Philly, 5.1 MM in SanFran).

• Average age of ANA members was 38.5 years in 1902.

• ANA Membership in 1903 was 450 memebers.   

• 1904 Gold Production: $233 MM in gold coins face value…..11.4 MM Double Eagles with about 6.3 MM from Philadelphia and 5.1 MM from SanFran.

• 1904 Silver Authorization for Morgan Dollars expired.  No more Morgans !!  

• The ice cream cone was invented at the 1904 World’s Fair in St. Louis when an ice cream stand ran out of dishes and a nearby pastry maker rolled wafers into ice cream holders.

• The San Francisco Mint survived the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake.  It was the only financial institution left intact.

• The Denver Mint commenced operations in 1906.  The Clark, Gruber & Co. operations that had been called a Denver mint saw no federal coins struck there since 1862.

• 1907:  The Liberty Head Double Eagle was in the last year of production.

• Treasury held $788.5 MM in gold coins, National Banks held $203.3 MM, and others/circulating was $458 MM.

• JP Morgan and Hetty Green (Colonel EHR Green’s mother, aka The Witch of Wall Street), helped arrest The Panic of 1907 following the failure of Knickerbocker Trust.

Edited July 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:43 AM, Zebo said:

So GF - did you buy the book and if so what did you think of it. ($20 Libs)

Missed this....obviously, bought the book Zebo....loved it, lots of comments and "Tidbits" notes in this thread. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Fairmont Hoard:    It's the gift that keeps on giving ....it's lasted YEARS now....most of the coins and Double Eagles are from 1850 through the 1920's according to Doug Winter.  Can't remember if there have been many or any Saints (will check) but most of the coins are from the 1800's and most of the DEs are Liberty Heads including lots of CC's.

One of the articles by Winter said it was originally tens of thousands of pieces...whether it is really one big hoard or whether it's the accumulated assets from lots of banks and individuals, I can't say.  But apparently I'm not the only person asking how big this hoard is and how long it will go on for.

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2023/11/17/five-random-observations-about-the-most-recent-fairmont-sale-november-2023

 

[zadok]

On 12/6/2023 at 3:03 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Fairmont Hoard:    It's the gift that keeps on giving ....it's lasted YEARS now....most of the coins and Double Eagles are from 1850 through the 1920's according to Doug Winter.  Can't remember if there have been many or any Saints (will check) but most of the coins are from the 1800's and most of the DEs are Liberty Heads including lots of CC's.

One of the articles by Winter said it was originally tens of thousands of pieces...whether it is really one big hoard or whether it's the accumulated assets from lots of banks and individuals, I can't say.  But apparently I'm not the only person asking how big this hoard is and how long it will go on for.

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2023/11/17/five-random-observations-about-the-most-recent-fairmont-sale-november-2023

 

...those questions r not answered by design with certain intended purposes, this info obtained from the source, bank on it...as to the "hoard" this subject was addressed by David Lange once before in one of his commentaries, i do not remember exactly which one...it is not from a single collection....

[GoldFinger1969]

Liberty Head DEs in 2023:  Doug Winters year-end wrap-up with interesting observations on the Liberty Head Double Eagle (more happening there, too, with the Fairmont Collection impact).

https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2023/12/29/the-annual-dwn-whats-hot-whats-not-list-2023-edition

Not sure I agree with his rationale or anlaysis for why "Trash Twenties" are holding up...solely because of bullion investment dealers ?  Doesn't make sense that a semi-scarce date like the 1891-S would jump to a huge premium to the Liberty Head DE commons.

[GoldFinger1969]

Bowers book mentions that the "ordinary steam press" and steel die was unable to bring up Liberty's face fully in the initial test runs in 1849.  Apparently they made a good one (maybe the one in the Smithsonian ?) using a "heavy hand press."

Not sure if or where this might be covered in a book like FMTM...but was the steam press about to be replaced by something more powerful ?  Did they temper and strengthen the regular steel dies to solve the problem ?  Was it a combination of both ? 

I know the MCMVIII UHRs and HR's were struck on the special metal press which could impact up to 170 tons of pressure, not sure how powerful this steam press was 57 years earlier.

Edited February 9 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/6/2023 at 10:32 AM, zadok said:

...those questions r not answered by design with certain intended purposes, this info obtained from the source, bank on it...as to the "hoard" this subject was addressed by David Lange once before in one of his commentaries, i do not remember exactly which one...it is not from a single collection....

Oh no doubt...clearly several hoards or collections....jeez, it's 9 tons of gold !!! 

Makes sense for multiple disparate hoards to be grouped together and sold as one....they can "piggy-back" on each other.  I think you or someone said that was often the case with famous auctions like the Adolphe Menjou 1950 and other auctions....also with the Thaine B. Price auction where some Steve Duckor coins were sold.  Someone once posted that a Buddy Epsen ("Beverly Hillbillies") auction, even though he was a legit collector, had mostly coins that were NOT his.

I guess in moderation it's not being dishonest...but impossible to determine how much of a collection actually belongs to the person whose name is attached to it, huh ? 

Edited February 9 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Oh no doubt...clearly several hoards or collections....jeez, it's 9 tons of gold !!! 

Makes sense for multiple disparate hoards to be grouped together and sold as one....they can "piggy-back" on each other.  I think you or someone said that was often the case with famous auctions like the Adolphe Menjou 1950 and other auctions....also with the Thaine B. Price auction where some Steve Duckor coins were sold.  Someone once posted that a Buddy Epsen ("Beverly Hillbillies") auction, even though he was a legit collector, had mostly coins that were NOT his.

I guess in moderation it's not being dishonest...but impossible to determine how much of a collection actually belongs to the person whose name is attached to it, huh ? 

...absolutlely correct...pedigree sells, hence all the "ex-*****" on labels n auction descriptions...fortunately some of the repetitively, nauseatedly referenced ones on this forum will never be ex-anything....

[GoldFinger1969]

From Doug Winters Blog:  

"....Considered as a whole, the biggest losers among the entire Liberty Head $20 series were neither the rarities nor the common dates - they were the issues in between, i.e., the better dates, but not the best dates. These include several of the T1 $20s and the relatively more common Carson City issues. These scarce-but-not-rare issues were the ones that were most heavily “Fairmonted.”

For the most part, the prices for the rarities did not respond at all to the appearance of the double eagles from the Fairmont Collection. This is, perhaps, no surprise, as it quickly became evident that there were few, if any, of the important rarities among the Fairmont double eagles - for example, there were no 1854-O, 1856-O, or 1861 Paquet reverse coins."

[GoldFinger1969]

1849 Double Eagle:  It's generally said that there is only 1 survivor (might be another 2-3 struck but destroyed)....it's in the Smithsonsian.

But Bower's Red Book says there was talk of another 1849 DE struck for Treasury Secretary William Meredith (d. 1873)...his estate handing it down to Philly dealer William Nagy, who told Breen in the 1950's that it was in a private collection. 

I know Breen's reputation for hyperbole and outright falsehoods but I was wondering if anybody has read or heard of anything regarding the possibility of a 2nd coin being struck.  You would think that with over 70 years since the story came out -- and over 175 since it was last seen -- that it would have come public by now. 

The references to Meredith and Nagy in the Bowers Red Book are the only ones I have come across.  And it IS 20 years old, so maybe stuff has come out to debunk this since.  But I haven't seen it. 

Edited April 5 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 4/5/2024 at 6:25 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1849 Double Eagle:  It's generally said that there is only 1 survivor (might be another 2-3 struck but destroyed)....it's in the Smithsonsian.

But Bower's Red Book says there was talk of another 1849 DE struck for Treasury Secretary William Meredith (d. 1873)...his estate handing it down to Philly dealer William Nagy, who told Breen in the 1950's that it was in a private collection. 

I know Breen's reputation for hyperbole and outright falsehoods but I was wondering if anybody has read or heard of anything regarding the possibility of a 2nd coin being struck.  You would think that with over 70 years since the story came out -- and over 175 since it was last seen -- that it would have come public by now. 

The references to Meredith and Nagy in the Bowers Red Book are the only ones I have come across.  And it IS 20 years old, so maybe stuff has come out to debunk this since.  But I haven't seen it. 

...if u owned this coin today, would u publicize ur ownership?...think bout it....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/7/2024 at 8:23 PM, zadok said:

...if u owned this coin today, would u publicize ur ownership?...think bout it....

Well...if you are saying it is illegal like the 1933 DE, yeah, I get your point.

The limited information I have seen says that any and all 1849's are legit.  Just that apparently only 1 survived. 

[zadok]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well...if you are saying it is illegal like the 1933 DE, yeah, I get your point.

The limited information I have seen says that any and all 1849's are legit.  Just that apparently only 1 survived. 

...besides the legit aspect, would u actually want anyone to even know bout it n that u had it...n would u trust our govt to not try n find a way to take it away from u, their track record is very tarnished...there r several coins out there that r not reflected in any archives, books or commentaries n will most likely remain that way...i have seen a couple that r not supposed to exist n respect the owners desires....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/9/2024 at 2:32 PM, zadok said:

...besides the legit aspect, would u actually want anyone to even know bout it n that u had it...n would u trust our govt to not try n find a way to take it away from u, their track record is very tarnished...there r several coins out there that r not reflected in any archives, books or commentaries n will most likely remain that way...i have seen a couple that r not supposed to exist n respect the owners desires....

Well, you know how I feel about the confiscation of the 1933 DE's but I've seen nothing abut the 1849 and some others being a target by the U.S. government.   There was some Treasury dunce talking about how the Liberty Nickel's should be seized...but that was some underling in the 1950's.

I maintain that just as FDR's EO on gold confiscation was eventually repealed, the seizing of the 1933's -- and any other coins with a target on their backs -- will also be repealed. 

[zadok]

On 4/10/2024 at 2:26 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, you know how I feel about the confiscation of the 1933 DE's but I've seen nothing abut the 1849 and some others being a target by the U.S. government.   There was some Treasury dunce talking about how the Liberty Nickel's should be seized...but that was some underling in the 1950's.

I maintain that just as FDR's EO on gold confiscation was eventually repealed, the seizing of the 1933's -- and any other coins with a target on their backs -- will also be repealed. 

...well as forrest said..."stupid is as stupid does..." n watching the trends in our elected officials the past few decades its just a matter of time before intelligence levels get below pond scum n some marooney will think its a good idea to revisit all assets for govt reconsiderations... what they dont know wont hurt them nor the rest of the numismatic community....