Advice on risking $18 for the unknown virtues of "Mint Error" service 0

[EagleRJO]

Dascher, I think you are seriously overcomplicating things when you just need to look at mintage numbers and composition of coins to get an indication of rarity. From having collected older German coins the rarer ones are typically silver, often combined with a very low mintage. During periods of economic upheaval (e.g. near the end of WWI and WWII with hyperinflation) silver coins were usually hoarded and often melted down for ease of hiding or barter. There were some very clever things made out of melted silver coins to keep soldiers or others from finding people's stash.

In 1888 the 20p coin was not made of silver, it was made of copper-nickel, so there wouldn't be any expected rarity from hoarding. The Munich mint (D mark) produced 1.4M of those coins, whereas the Karlsruhe mint (G mark) produced the least at 610k coins. I wouldn't consider either as having a likely rarity. So, I agree with Mike that you would NOT expect the 1888-D 20p coin to be a rare date, and there does appear to be good relative availability consistent with market price guides after doing a little more digging.

Edited April 12, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Crawtomatic]

On 11/7/2022 at 3:05 AM, EagleRJO said:

"Slider" can mean different things to different people, in different situations. It can mean a lightly circulated coin that has been cleaned and dipped in chemicals to improve its appearance, and look very shiny like a uncirculated coin. That is meant in a derogatory way when done with the intent to fool a collector.

Then there is what I think is the more common usage, and how I often use the term, which is an about uncirculated coin that is a very high AU grade with only very minor issues that may not be readily apparent and could "slide" into an MS grade depending on the grader and other factors.

So, I think you really have to take the context of the situation to get how the term is being used.

I don't recall if I read this or just imagined it but the term slider may also have roots in commerce.  Change, typically coins, being given back to a customer by slid across a counter.  Just enough wear and friction to break luster on the high points on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

[Dascher]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:01 PM, Crawtomatic said:

I don't recall if I read this or just imagined it but the term slider may also have roots in commerce.  Change, typically coins, being given back to a customer by slid across a counter.  Just enough wear and friction to break luster on the high points on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

That makes sense. Cool anecdote. Even if it's not historically accurate, it ought to be. It's probably more apt than the truth... which better not have anything to do with miniature burgers from Hooters or White Castle. The thought of Harold & Kumar coining (pun intended) a numismatic colloquialism just ain't right!

[EagleRJO]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:01 PM, Crawtomatic said:

I don't recall if I read this or just imagined it but the term slider may also have roots in commerce.  Change, typically coins, being given back to a customer by slid across a counter.  Just enough wear and friction to break luster on the high points on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

Very interesting indeed, and that might very well be historically true and would fit with how I would typically use the term "slider". Thanks for sharing that little tidbit. I think if there is just enough wear to break luster on high points from "sliding" an uncirculated coin across a counter it would end up being a high AU grade coin ... at least as far as reaching the customer's pocket. After that all bets are off. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 11/7/2022 at 12:52 AM, Dascher said:

BTW, I've been meaning to ask. What exactly does "slider" mean?... other than Iceman's RIO at Top Gun, of course. Thanks

A way too small hamburger?

[J P M]

On 11/7/2022 at 5:01 PM, Crawtomatic said:

I don't recall if I read this or just imagined it but the term slider may also have roots in commerce.  Change, typically coins, being given back to a customer by slid across a counter.  Just enough wear and friction to break luster on the high points on an otherwise uncirculated coin.

I think the correct term for a MS coin with slight drag marks is called a trayed coin. From being slid across the red, black or blue velvet display tray in a coin draw or display case. I could be wrong it would not be the first or last time. 

[Just Bob]

On 11/9/2022 at 7:44 AM, J P M said:

I think the correct term for a MS coin with slight drag marks is called a trayed coin. From being slid across the red, black or blue velvet display tray in a coin draw or display case. I could be wrong it would not be the first or last time. 

Also called "cabinet friction."

[EagleRJO]

I do recall there being allowances for cabinet friction marks on MS graded coins. So a trayed coin with some cabinet friction would still grade MS, and be different than a high grade AU or slider, correct?

Edited November 9, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Just Bob]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:04 AM, EagleRJO said:

I do recall there being allowances for cabinet friction marks on MS graded coins. So a trayed coin with some cabinet friction would still grade MS, and be different than a high grade AU or slider, correct?

It depends on who's grading it, honestly.

I've seen "cabinet friction" and "slider" used interchangeably. Market grading would allow for a coin with rub to be low Mint State. In my opinion, though, wear is wear, whether it comes from rubbing back and forth in a cabinet, sliding across a countertop, or rubbing against another coin in someone's pocket. Once the luster is gone from the high points, it isn't truly Mint State anymore. My opinion, of course.

[EagleRJO]

@Just Bobmulling over that, and very true. But then could you not also include rubs from feeder finger actuation, coins contacting and rubbing against each other in the mint bins, while being placed in mint bags or rolls, or rubbing against each other in mint bags while being transported and handled before finally arriving at a bank vault in a "mint state" condition, where some of those things may remove some high point or contact luster?

I might be creating my own mint state rabbit hole where it all depends on how you define certain coin reated terms. Well there are grading standards that really address most of that, but which standards you use is a whole other rabbit hole. 

Maybe the only true "70" should be one that is removed from the press with special tongs and placed in a protective holder, and that the market pricing needs to be adjusted to reflect the grade and not the other way around. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by EagleRJO

[JKK]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:03 PM, Dascher said:

Hey Bob! So very nice to hear from you again and thank you for your honest and supportive words. They are always valued, appreciated and helpful.
Your gifts of wisdom, diplomacy and persuasion would rival that of Ben Franklin's (his infamy with these among the ladies of 1790s French aristocracy notwithstanding, of course)      

Bob's one of the good guys. On your coin, I like it and don't think the prominent mechanical doubling will be a factor, so you did right not to throw an extra $18 at variety identification.

I'm not one of the good guys, really, but I am a fellow Kansas boy. From Hutch (E 14th St and McCandless Bulldogs represent); I remember the Cosmosphere when it was just a little planetarium. I miss Carriage Crossing and Iron Horse BBQ, living out here in self-imposed Northwestern exile. Most of my paternal relatives live around Wichita, Andover, Derby, Beaumont, and such. Mom's side are divided between Chase County, Emporia, and the JoCo burbs. Both parents grew up in Chase. I remember going to Wichita as a tot to visit cousins, and watching the KAKE-man on Saturday morning TV.

I haven't been home in years. I yell at Jeff Probst: "Why are you stressing over 'come on in, guys'? Just say 'come on in, folks,' like you would back home."

My own intro to coins came in Chase, specifically the family ranch NE of Strong City. I found a black coin in front of the carriage-room and it was a worn Barber dime, probably fumbled there by my great-grandparents. They let me keep it and started giving me old coins. 53 years later, here we are.

To me, sliders are a pitch I used to throw until my catchers told me it was lame and to concentrate on the knuckleball.

Edited November 9, 2022 by JKK

[Just Bob]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:47 AM, EagleRJO said:

@Just Bobmulling over that,  and very true. But then could you not also include rubs from feeder finger actuation, coins contacting and rubbing against each other in the mint bins, while being placed in mint bags or rolls, or rubbing against each other in mint bags while being transported and handled before finally arriving at a bank vault in a "mint state" condition, where some of those things may remove some high point or contact luster?

There is a distinct difference in appearance between contact marks and friction rub, in most cases. I'm not sure I can accurately explain the difference in appearance, and sometimes it is hard to tell. I know - I've been fooled more than once. The only thing I can say is continue doing what you're doing: looking at  lots and lots of coins.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Just Bob
Did not finish my sentence for some reason.

[EagleRJO]

Hey Bob, I get what you saying. I'm just being a little banterous. Honestly at this point if someone told me my life depended on telling the difference between a 67 and a 67+ I would be in trouble ... maybe one day in a galaxy far far away. ✨️

[EagleRJO]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:55 AM, JKK said:

Bob's one of the good guys ... I'm not one of the good guys, really

At least your honest about it. 

On 11/9/2022 at 11:55 AM, JKK said:

To me, sliders are a pitch I used to throw until my catchers told me it was lame and to concentrate on the knuckleball.

I could never throw a knuckleball that my grandmother wouldn't be able to hit. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:47 PM, jimbo27 said:

Here is one to compare [1888-D 20p MS-64], found on ebay. Asking price $134.

That might not be too far off as the NGC guide lists $120 for an MS-63. From eBay sold listings looks like you can pick up a nice uncirculated one in the mid $40 range and an AU for under $10. But the op's coin is a lot nicer than the sold raw AU coins there. His is a nice coin, and either MS or AU slider. 

[Dascher]

On 11/9/2022 at 10:55 AM, JKK said:

Bob's one of the good guys. On your coin, I like it and don't think the prominent mechanical doubling will be a factor, so you did right not to throw an extra $18 at variety identification.

I'm not one of the good guys, really, but I am a fellow Kansas boy. From Hutch (E 14th St and McCandless Bulldogs represent); I remember the Cosmosphere when it was just a little planetarium. I miss Carriage Crossing and Iron Horse BBQ, living out here in self-imposed Northwestern exile. Most of my paternal relatives live around Wichita, Andover, Derby, Beaumont, and such. Mom's side are divided between Chase County, Emporia, and the JoCo burbs. Both parents grew up in Chase. I remember going to Wichita as a tot to visit cousins, and watching the KAKE-man on Saturday morning TV.

I haven't been home in years. I yell at Jeff Probst: "Why are you stressing over 'come on in, guys'? Just say 'come on in, folks,' like you would back home."

My own intro to coins came in Chase, specifically the family ranch NE of Strong City. I found a black coin in front of the carriage-room and it was a worn Barber dime, probably fumbled there by my great-grandparents. They let me keep it and started giving me old coins. 53 years later, here we are.

To me, sliders are a pitch I used to throw until my catchers told me it was lame and to concentrate on the knuckleball.

Holy , this is definitely a cool, "it's-a-small-word" moment I did NOT see coming. We moved here in 2016 after 8 years in my wife's native Denmark without knowing anyone or having any prior connections. We really like it here and it's a great place to raise a family, but I'm born, bred, raised heart & Soul Philly / So. Jersey Shore. Definitely ping me if you come by his way to visit family. We're members and life across the street from Terradyne Country Club.   

[JKK]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:06 PM, Dascher said:

Holy , this is definitely a cool, "it's-a-small-word" moment I did NOT see coming. We moved here in 2016 after 8 years in my wife's native Denmark without knowing anyone or having any prior connections. We really like it here and it's a great place to raise a family, but I'm born, bred, raised heart & Soul Philly / So. Jersey Shore. Definitely ping me if you come by his way to visit family. We're members and life across the street from Terradyne Country Club.   

Heh. My cousin Brian used to be the chef at Terradyne. Välkommen till Kansas. I realize Danes are not the same as Swedes, but have you gotten your bride over to Lindsborg yet? Great place to get some fish boiled in Drano and probably lingonberry pancakes. Also if you are an adherent of customary Philly/Jersey foods, bet you can get scrapple and probably souse in Yoder (Old Order Amish) if you ask around. If not there, possibly Galva (Mennonite). I love scrapple, introduced to me by longtime friends from PA, and Taylor pork roll when I can find it. Also Lebanon bologna. Only had souse once and that was actually in Georgia, but hope someday to try some more.

One thing you have probably noticed is that Kansas has better beef than most places. Looked it up...yep, Hereford House. Sterling Silver steaks! Also, if you have not yet tried them, look for bierocks (pronounce it like beer rocks). They are a Volga German specialty that actually has a chain (Runza) in Nebraska but they are popular in most of KS as well. If you looked at the word and saw it as cognate with pierogi and pirozhki, good linguistic work on your part. Branching out, in addition to the Cosmosphere in dear old dilapidated Hutch, there's a nice air museum in Winfield and another near Topeka. If you care about Knute Rockne, his plane went down an hour or two north of you near Bazaar in Chase County. If you really want to freak out your wife, take her down near Pawhuska to the Woolaroc Museum, the Phillips oil magnate's former getaway. I think it's the world's largest collection of Colt firearms, including some very rare ones. A Dane would perhaps have a very hard time imagining such a thing in private hands.

As for coin shopping, I think there's a shop in Hutch but I don't get there often enough to say what's current, so in that area I'm udders on a steer.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:56 PM, Dascher said:

.... It's pure beauty like Jodie Foster's smile....

🐓:  You want to tell him, or shall I?

Q.A.:  I'll give it a shot:  all this pfenning stuff aside, you will forgive me if I say J.F.'s smile is not worth doing 40 years over, no way no how.  Now good luck with that coin you spent one cent for, that you're now ready, willing and able to spend upwards of another ten thousand cents for.  

[Dascher]

On 11/9/2022 at 11:16 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

🐓:  You want to tell him, or shall I?

Q.A.:  I'll give it a shot:  all this pfenning stuff aside, you will forgive me if I say J.F.'s smile is not worth doing 40 years over, no way no how.  Now good luck with that coin you spent one cent for, that you're now ready, willing and able to spend upwards of another ten thousand cents for.  

Hun?

[EagleRJO]

On 11/10/2022 at 12:29 AM, Dascher said:

Hun?

Yea, it's not you.

Q.A. can be a little ... "eccentric", trying to be humorous as a collector of French gold coins called Roosters. I don't think he knows you paid $18 for the coin, and missed a decimal place trying to do a pocket change currency conversion. 🙄 

Anyway, did you submit the coin?

[Dascher]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:25 AM, Coinbuf said:

Please stop back in and post your grading results if you do send it in, I do not know this series or type but from the photos an AU grade seems possible.

@Coinbuf @EagleRJO @jimbo27 @Fenntucky Mike @Crawtomatic @VKurtB @J P M @Just Bob @JKK

Better late than never, but I said I would do it so here goes. I finally got this back from NGC and it turned out fairly well - MS 63.

[Pocket Changer]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:40 PM, Dascher said:

@Coinbuf @EagleRJO @jimbo27 @Fenntucky Mike @Crawtomatic @VKurtB @J P M @Just Bob @JKK

Better late than never, but I said I would do it so here goes. I finally got this back from NGC and it turned out fairly well - MS 63.

Congratulations, that is very ice!

[Coinbuf]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:40 AM, Dascher said:

@Coinbuf @EagleRJO @jimbo27 @Fenntucky Mike @Crawtomatic @VKurtB @J P M @Just Bob @JKK

Better late than never, but I said I would do it so here goes. I finally got this back from NGC and it turned out fairly well - MS 63.

 

 

 

Awesome, thanks for stopping back with the results of your submission.

[EagleRJO]

I'm glad you got the MS63, even though you thought it might grade higher, given the concerns it may be a AU slider.  Was it worth submitting with the MS63 it came back as?

Also, I'm assuming you didn't submit it for the doubling attribution with the extra fee based on the feedback you received here that it looked like shelf doubling.

Edited April 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[Just Bob]

Congrats on the 63. Once again we are reminded that it is difficult to grade from pictures. I am glad I was wrong on the low side.

Don't be a stranger. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Just Bob

[Fenntucky Mike]

Nice @Dascher, congrats! 

Got it. It took me a while but I found the one I had in my collection and took a couple pics of it. I wish I remembered/could find this when the thread was stared, sorry about that. 

[Dascher]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:00 PM, EagleRJO said:

I'm glad you got the MS63, even though you thought it might grade higher, given the concerns it may be a AU slider.  Was it worth submitting with the MS63 it came back as?

Also, I'm assuming you didn't submit it for the doubling attribution with the extra fee based on the feedback you received here that it looked like shelf doubling.

Oh heck yeah! I think it was worth submitting now that it came back as an MS63, and I am very grateful for the advice you and the other faithfuls on these boards gave me not to submit it for the doubling attribution.

[Dascher]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:28 PM, Just Bob said:

Congrats on the 63. Once again we are reminded that it is difficult to grade from pictures. I am glad I was wrong on the low side.

Don't be a stranger. 

 

 

 

 

 

Amen brother! Thanks for all of your honesty & friendship. And you are correct, I will not be a stranger. Y'all are good people!

[Dascher]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:00 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Nice @Dascher, congrats! 

Got it. It took me a while but I found the one I had in my collection and took a couple pics of it. I wish I remembered/could find this when the thread was stared, sorry about that. 

DAMN FENN!!! Yours is by far nicer than mine. Congrats!
I'm actually still waiting on mine to get shipped back to me, but as soon as it does it is going up on eBay. It'll probably take a few months to sell, but when it does I'll be happy to share all the details with you.

[Dascher]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:38 PM, Coinbuf said:

Awesome, thanks for stopping back with the results of your submission.

Thank you for holding my feet to the fire!