Dan Carr 2 2

[tj96]

Thanks!

[EagleRJO]

So far nobody has provided any compelling opinions with references that the Dan Carr overstrike/tokens would be considered counterfeits.

However, I think there is compelling information that those overstrikes/tokens would not be considered counterfeits.

[Sandon]

    Whether or not these items should be classified as counterfeits, they are not "coins", a Webster's dictionary definition of "coin" being "[a] piece of metal marked and issued by governmental authority to be used as money". (The overstriking of actual coins with different dates or design elements presumably destroys their legal status as coins.) While there is no problem with knowledgeable people collecting them, it's a very real problem that they closely resemble actual coin designs and may be used as a means to deceive and defraud those who are not numismatically knowledgeable--the vast majority of the population!  "Copy" stamps have been obliterated and may not be noticed or understood.  In my opinion our hobby would be better off without the creation and distribution of such items, although my libertarian leanings make me reluctant to recommend any legal prohibitions.

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:05 AM, Sandon said:

    Whether or not these items should be classified as counterfeits, they are not "coins", a Webster's dictionary definition of "coin" being "[a] piece of metal marked and issued by governmental authority to be used as money". (The overstriking of actual coins with different dates or design elements presumably destroys their legal status as coins.) While there is no problem with knowledgeable people collecting them, it's a very real problem that they closely resemble actual coin designs and may be used as a means to deceive and defraud those who are not numismatically knowledgeable--the vast majority of the population!  "Copy" stamps have been obliterated and may not be noticed or understood.  In my opinion our hobby would be better off without the creation and distribution of such items, although my libertarian leanings make me reluctant to recommend any legal prohibitions.

So you're a person that advocates civil liberty?..  That's a good thing.

My conservative leaning say the Secret Service will have to get past my CZ, before they take my Dan Carr's!

[ldhair]

Years ago, I was posting that Carr was now a target for china products. Many called me crazy but look at it now. 

Carr gave China an open path to bring even more counterfeit product into the US coin market. 

I deal with China everyday and have for the past 40 years. They can not be stopped at this point. They have the skills to destroy the market for all Carr products and they will. It's coming. 

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, ldhair said:

Years ago, I was posting that Carr was now a target for china products. Many called me crazy but look at it now. 

Carr gave China an open path to bring even more counterfeit product into the US coin market. 

I deal with China everyday and have for the past 40 years. They can not be stopped at this point. They have the skills to destroy the market for all Carr products and they will. It's coming. 

They can be stopped and they will be stopped. It starts with you, not dealing with them.  But I guess it's about your bottom-line isn't it?  If you're not a part of the solution, YOU'RE a part of the problem. China and Dan Carr products is the least of our problems.  EVERY produce here is a target of China!!

[EagleRJO]

I agree with Sandon that these pieces produced by the Moonlight Mint and Dan Carr should be referred to as "overstrikes" or "tokens".

Concerning if these tokens violate laws related to the possible use in commerce (18 US §485) the tokens are not struck "in resemblance of" coins struck by the US mint as they have either distinctly different dates/marks and/or distinctly different designs, and they are clearly not struck with an "Intent to defraud" the average consumer. There is no shot that these tokens are either intended to be used or would actually be used in commerce as legal tender due to the design and cost of the tokens.

Therefore the only thing left that can be debatable is the issue of if these tokens comply with the Hobby Protection Act (16 CFR part 304). This relates to it possibly being an "imitation numismatic item" or something which is a "reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item" and which "purports to be, but in fact in not an original numismatic item" and which would "fool the average collector".

The Dan Carr tokens are struck with different dates/marks or different designs, so it's not a copy or reproduction of an actual coin struck by the US mint. Furthermore, even though some of the tokens are struck with similar designs, like the 1964-D Morgan Dollar Token (example attached of one I have) this would not "fool the average collector" who would know that the item was never struck by the US mint.

However, Sandon does raise a valid point that there can be a negative effect on the hobby if either these tokens are held out for sale as real rare errors or rare coins struck by the US mint, or if these tokens are being called or are perceived to be "counterfeits"

I think it would be obvious to the "average collector" that these tokens are not some kind of rare coin or error, and I am not aware of there being any problem with that. However there are some that constantly beat the counterfeit drum related to these tokens which are going to continue to be produced, and I believe that in and of itself could be detrimental to the hobby if it continues.

Jusy my two (Indian head) nickels.

[VKurtB]

Misleading the average collector is NOT Dan Carr’s game. For THAT evil, you need to look to at least a large plurality of YouTube video makers. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:25 PM, VKurtB said:

Misleading the average collector is NOT Dan Carr’s game. For THAT evil, you need to look to at least a large plurality of YouTube video makers. 

Or the Chinese counterfeits that are all over sites like eBay or Etsy. Those are vastly more detrimental to the hobby than the Dan Carr overstrikes possibly being copied. I agree with @tj96that the counterfeits coming from China really need to be stopped, and nobody should be doing business with companies to export them to the US.

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:28 PM, ldhair said:

Carr gave China an open path to bring even more counterfeit product into the US coin market.

You're kidding me, right??   This entire country has given China an OPEN PATH!!  You're living in a dream world my friend!

Edited November 6, 2022 by tj96

[ldhair]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:58 PM, tj96 said:

They can be stopped and they will be stopped. It starts with you, not dealing with them.  But I guess it's about your bottom-line isn't it?  If you're not a part of the solution, YOU'RE a part of the problem. China and Dan Carr products is the least of our problems.  EVERY produce here is a target of China!!

Stop with your insults. You keep coming at me with insults and it better quit. Please control yourself. My dealings with China stop counterfeit products from coming into the US. If you knew anything about me you would understand that and what I do. It has nothing to do with my bottom line. It's about the truth and I never have to insult anyone to have an impact on the problem. 

[ldhair]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:18 PM, tj96 said:

You're kidding me, right??   This entire country has given China an OPEN PATH!!  You're living in a dream world my friend!

And you insult me again. It's people like you that drive folks away from this site. 

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 5:18 PM, ldhair said:

And you insult me again. It's people like you that drive folks away from this site. 

Lighten up!  I know you're emotional, don't be so sensitive!  

I don't have to know what you do.  But you don't know what I do for the gov't either.  If you have been dealing with China the past 40 years, like I said; you're a part of the problem not the solution.

Whatever you're doing to stop counterfeit products from coming into the US isn't working. Tell your boss that!   Stop dealing with China......PERIOD!!

[ldhair]

On 11/6/2022 at 5:26 PM, tj96 said:

Lighten up!  I know you're emotional, don't be so sensitive!

No. Your insulting posts to me and others needs to end.

There is no reason to insult and harass those that have a different opinion.  

This site was founded on members being able to give honest opinions.

It's not about starting fights to beat the heck out of someone you don't agree with.  

[VKurtB]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:11 PM, ldhair said:

Stop with your insults. You keep coming at me with insults and it better quit. Please control yourself. My dealings with China stop counterfeit products from coming into the US. If you knew anything about me you would understand that and what I do. It has nothing to do with my bottom line. It's about the truth and I never have to insult anyone to have an impact on the problem. 

I try to, but never quite succeed, to do as thorough a personal boycott of as much Chinese ANYTHING as I can possibly manage. Ditto ALL Leninist/Marxist inspired regimes, including Delaware. 

[ldhair]

I won't be posting any longer on this site with the exception of one thread I started 16 years ago and threads about the Fun Show in January. 

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:07 PM, ldhair said:

This site was founded on members being able to give honest opinions.

It's not about starting fights to beat the heck out of someone you don't agree with.  

And that's what I'm doing.  Giving you my honest opinion.  I'm not fighting with you or beating the heck out of you. You're just upset because you can't articulately defend your position.  I'm just curious to know how or why you think the way you do?   

[EagleRJO]

@ldhairand @tj96from the outside looking in, it does look like you guys were both throwing rocks at each other without really knowing each other's background, which could be very on-point with the topic. I understand the passion some can have who have either been burned by a counterfeit or had to try and deal with that or possibly companies who may have some association.

I think the reality is that while we can try and "Buy American" as much as possible, the sad truth is that an increasingly vast majority of products are comming from China and that's that.

I suspect that ldhair had some interesting views on the topic and I was hoping he could be enticed to expand on that, but not when you guys are throwing rocks at each other. "Group Hug" and maybe move on?

[tj96]

@EagleRJO  👍🏻  👍🏻 

[Oldhoopster]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:25 PM, ldhair said:

I won't be posting any longer on this site with the exception of one thread I started 16 years ago and threads about the Fun Show in January. 

Larry has built up a lot of credibility on this site as well as others over the years.  His answers are accurate, he helps answer questions from new collectors, and has demonstrated his numismatic knowledge over and over again.  @tj96, I'm not so sure.  Its a darn shame that someone is chasing away @ldhair 

If it wasn't for the research posts by rwb, I doubt I would be here much either.  Maybe its also time to bail on this site.  I'm sure QA and TJ96 can pick up on providing new collectors with accurate information.  

 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/6/2022 at 9:03 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Maybe its also time to bail on this site.  I'm sure QA and TJ96 can pick up on providing new collectors with accurate information.  

Oh boy, QA doesn't even have a swing arm lamp with a Bootleg 100w bulb. [Duck]  

[tj96]

On 11/6/2022 at 9:03 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Larry has built up a lot of credibility on this site as well as others over the years.  His answers are accurate, he helps answer questions from new collectors, and has demonstrated his numismatic knowledge over and over again.  @tj96, I'm not so sure.  Its a darn shame that someone is chasing away @ldhair 

If it wasn't for the research posts by rwb, I doubt I would be here much either.  Maybe its also time to bail on this site.  I'm sure QA and TJ96 can pick up on providing new collectors with accurate information.  

 

So now we can all feel sorry for Larry because I hurt his feelings and he can't defend HIMSELF?  That's pathetic and gutless.  Thanks for coming to his rescue @Oldhoopster great job!

Edited November 7, 2022 by tj96

[VKurtB]

Nothing more exotic going on here than Team Anti-Dan Carr flexing its muscles to attempt to intimidate Team Pro-Dan Carr, while trying to portray themselves as the “White Hats” that they are not. Dan Carr conversations ALWAYS devolve into hateful retorts. 

[J P M]

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. I made this post to show people all the Dan Carr coins available at NE coin for sale. The thread turned into a battle field ? There is no need for this hostility it is just a chat forum. There will always be disagreements no mater who, what, when or where. There is no need for members to leave over something like this. Be respectful to each other and please if a thread bothers you move to another thread not another web site. thanks JP 

[VKurtB]

On 11/8/2022 at 6:51 AM, J P M said:

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. I made this post to show people all the Dan Carr coins available at NE coin for sale. The thread turned into a battle field ? There is no need for this hostility it is just a chat forum. There will always be disagreements no mater who, what, when or where. There is no need for members to leave over something like this. Be respectful to each other and please if a thread bothers you move to another thread not another web site. thanks JP 

But noooooooo. The people who are leaving expect, nay, REQUIRE their gluteals to be osculated. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by VKurtB

[James Zyskowski]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:39 AM, Greenstang said:

One interesting fact about Dan Carr is that, whether you call his coins reproductions or counterfeits, is that he is allowed to sell them on eBay. Anyone else would have the listings removed as it is against eBay policy to sell counterfeits or reproductions.

   You don’t say. Seems they do allow overstrikes.  

[James Zyskowski]

   Let’s shake paws and have a fair fight 😂

   Tonight’s referee will be 🙀

Edited November 12, 2022 by James Zyskowski

[James Zyskowski]

 In this corner. Idhair 

And his opponent tj96

[James Zyskowski]

Tonight’s judges are

[EagleRJO]

On 11/5/2022 at 12:23 PM, ldhair said:

I see some of his work as counterfeits and some as nice original work. 

@ldhairI am still curious as to where you draw this line and why, as well as which of the Carr coins fall into each category, so let me start off by discussing what I think is borderline.

To me the questionable Carr overstrikes are an exact copy of a legit coin series, but just with a different date or mint mark, for a year where there are possible indications or rumors that coins may have actually been struck.  An example for one of these overstrikes is the Carr 1964-D Morgan dollar, with an example of one attached. For comparison, I also attached a legit higher grade 1904-O Morgan Dollar certified by PCG$.

The reason why I say the Carr overstrike may be borderline is because the US mint considered striking that coin for 1964. Designs and master hubs for a 1964 Morgan were actually found in the vaults at the US mint.  However, no working dies to actually strike coins were found and the US mint says that no 1964 Morgans were struck, not even test strikes. That coin is also not listed in any industry accepted references, like the Red Book or NGC/PCG$ guides. However, since they found actual hubs for those coins there have been rumors that maybe the US mint did strike some test coins, even though there are no records from the mint to support that.

I could see a less knowledgeable collector possibly being convinced that the Carr 1964 Morgan was a rare test strike by the US mint. The real issue is would that coin "fool the average collector" under the Hobby Protection Act (16 CFR Part 304) and interpretations by federal courts.  I collect Morgans, so I probably know a little more about that coin.  However, I would like to hear what others think who may not collect them.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by EagleRJO