Anyone know of a coin shop / bullion dealer with an XRF machine in the Dallas metro? 1 1

[Oldhoopster]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:58 PM, Taylor7 said:

The physics of XRF is quite sound, what I don’t trust is the firmware, the stores network security, or their staff. I’ve been targeted by a lot of pathetic online and offline harassment and believe this is one more example. 

...

if the people harassing me can hack a jewelry stores XRF or convince them to deceive me, what makes you think they can’t do the same to a grading company or mail service. 

 

So you're saying that someone hacked the jewelry store XRF or convinced them to give misleading info?  And this same group may Be hacking the TPGs? 

You do understand that the handheld XRF are stand alone units and don't require internet access to work.  Sort of makes it hard to hack now, doesn't it.  More info on handheld XRFs if you want to understand how they work. https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/portable-xrf-analyzer-price

You have offered no verifiable proof even though you've been offered expert advice. Maybe you should try trolling/scamming the other coin forums.  Guarantee you'll get the same answers you got here

Edited October 22, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[Coinbuf]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:22 PM, J P M said:

Well I hope the Kennedy it is a winner. Now the big question is ? Why are people targeting you. No one here knows you?

His own tests have already proven this coin is not what he claims, just a scammer or troll.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/22/2022 at 3:29 AM, Taylor7 said:

I was told a silver coin was cu-ni. Even have a photo of the machine results. Not sure if it was the shop clerks error or if they should unplug its ethernet cable, if you know what I mean. (I would if I ran a jewelry/coin/bullion shop) ... The physics of XRF is quite sound ...

You have your answer even if you can't bring yourself to accept the results or verify them yourself by doing simple and accurate SG tests.

On 10/22/2022 at 6:58 PM, Taylor7 said:

... what I don’t trust is the firmware, the stores network security, or their staff. I’ve been targeted by a lot of pathetic online and offline harassment and believe this is one more example ... if the people harassing me can hack a jewelry stores XRF or convince them to deceive me, what makes you think they can’t do the same to a grading company or mail service.

Add more tin foil or go someone else!

Edited October 31, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Taylor7]

[Taylor7]

I’d gladly do an SG test just to satisfy you but don’t trust the scale I have, so I’ll post results when I get a new one. 

[Oldhoopster]

Sorry to say but the core Layer is copper, which is found on cupronickel coins.  The core layer of 40% silver is 21% silver and 79% copper and that alloy has a silvery color.  Go compare the edge of your coin to that of other 1965-70 halves.  You'll easily see that the core layer doesn't match

I think that last piece of information showing the edge pic is all the proof you need to show it's the standard copper nickel alloy and not a transitional error

Edited October 23, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[J P M]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:14 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Sorry to say but the core Layer is copper.

Wow that edge is the copper of coppers .My eyes are on fire. 

[Sandon]

 @Taylor7--The photo of the edge shows a bright red copper core, just as one would expect on an uncirculated or nearly so normal 1971-D Kennedy half dollar! (On a worn one it would be brown.)  Compare this with the edge of any 1965-70 half dollar, which will show a much lighter colored 20% silver core. Respectfully, I don't know why you thought this one was silver clad.

@EagleRJO and others--It's often not necessary to debate the merits of weight, specific gravity, XRF, chemical or other tests in identifying or authenticating coins.  Often, it is sufficient just to know what they look like!

 

[Taylor7]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:50 PM, EagleRJO said:

You have your answer even if you can't bring yourself to accept the results or verify them yourself by doing simple and accurate SG tests.

Add more tin foil or try to scam someone else!

 

On 10/22/2022 at 6:27 PM, Oldhoopster said:

So you're saying that someone hacked the jewelry store XRF or convinced them to give misleading info?  And this same group may Be hacking the TPGs? 

You do understand that the handheld XRF are stand alone units and don't require internet access to work.  Sort of makes it hard to hack now, doesn't it.  More info on handheld XRFs if you want to understand how they work. https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/portable-xrf-analyzer-price

You have offered no verifiable proof even though you've been offered expert advice. Maybe you should try trolling/scamming the other coin forums.  Guarantee you'll get the same answers you got here

The XRF machine at the jewelry store is not placed such that the customer can see its results. Could’ve been human error. I did mention the clerk was distracted a few times in the process so he might have recorded a different coins results in error. This was not a handheld unit, checked the specs and it is networked. I have some other bizarre experiences though that lead me to believe my more paranoid interpretation of events is more likely. I’m not interested in explaining why all this is happening here. I don’t blame you for thinking this sounds insane. 
 

so what would be proof? If I were to repeat the experiment but record a Timelapse video of the entire process so you can see the coin toning would you find that convincing? Should I instead live stream the experiment and interact with the chat so you know the video wasn’t edited? 
 

I will admit for this kind of money there are scammers out there who would paint the edge of a coin and claim it was sulfur toning so I’m happy to provide additional proof to your satisfaction. This is something of a social experiment I’m conducting tbh. It’s interesting because this coin predates the first coin grading company, ANACS, so how did collectors of such errors authenticate them before then? By the way, I called ANACS and was surprised to learn they do not XRF test, only weight. 
 

are there microscopic differences in the texture and metal flow lines between silver and cu-ni that I could look for? 
 

Seriously, besides sending it off for grading (still considering this but thought I’d see what offers I got on it raw first as my grandmother needs financial assistance asap), what would you consider proof? 
 

exactly what specific gravity would you consider high enough to conclude it was silver clad? Do you have any other silver clad halves weighing only 11.3g (regardless of year) in UNC condition to compare it to? 
 

would you like to see video of the ice cube test or tissue paper test? 
 

should I find a high accuracy way to measure its electric resistance? 
 

video of the ping test? Waterfall plots of the audio of the ping test? 
 

is there any test that would convince you, coming from me rather than a grading company? That’s the real question here. 

[Taylor7]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:14 PM, Oldhoopster said:

Sorry to say but the core Layer is copper, which is found on cupronickel coins.  The core layer of 40% silver is 21% silver and 79% copper and that alloy has a silvery color.  Go compare the edge of your coin to that of other 1965-70 halves.  You'll easily see that the core layer doesn't match

I think that last piece of information showing the edge pic is all the proof you need to show it's the standard copper nickel alloy and not a transitional error

If there was no silver it would not have toned like it did in the presence of sulfur. I did this test with a control group of silver coins and clad coins to be sure. 
 

so perhaps this coin is not simply a 71 struck on a 70 planchet? What else could it be? Foreign planchet? Test article? 
 

just assume it has silver since it toned like it did, even if you don’t want to buy it, even if you caution others from buying it, simply asserting I’m being dishonest isn’t going to solve this mystery. 

[Oldhoopster]

@Taylor7

Your picture of the edge provided all the proof you need.   The good news is you just saved yourself $65+/- by not needing to send it in for attribution.

[Taylor7]

things are getting even stranger. The rim is red on one side and silver on the other.

the color of the rim could be rainbow or vanta black or any color under the sun, that wouldn't change the fact that the faces have silver. I've proven this to myself with the sulfur egg test, understandably some of you accuse me of faking that, so how can I convince you of this fact or determine if the silver on the faces are plating or some other modification. 

 

[J P M]

Ok slick, ,,This has been fun but the fact remains it is a 1971 D. A nice strike as would be expected in a Denver coin. We still have not seen the reverse which is also used to determine the grade and should have been in the first shots. Or you can post the reverse in a day or so and drag this thread out a little longer.  If you send it in for grading it may come back a 65 and you will still have a coin no one wants to pay top dollar for. Everyone who posted was more than willing to give you good advice but you insist this coin is something special.................. It is NOT............... I hope you do not try to sell it that way.    

[Taylor7]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:19 AM, J P M said:

Ok slick, ,,This has been fun but the fact remains it is a 1971 D. A nice strike as would be expected in a Denver coin. We still have not seen the reverse which is also used to determine the grade and should have been in the first shots. Or you can post the reverse in a day or so and drag this thread out a little longer.  If you send it in for grading it may come back a 65 and you will still have a coin no one wants to pay top dollar for. Everyone who posted was more than willing to give you good advice but you insist this coin is something special.................. It is NOT............... I hope you do not try to sell it that way.    

The coin is special, as it is silver. I know this from the chemical test I did exposing it to sulfur. I understand why you may not believe this, but I have asked above (with a variety of proposed methods) and will ask again what do I need to do to convince you that it is silver, and what do I need to do to convince you the silver is not a post minting modification? 

[J P M]

Sulfur will change the color of lots of things. I had a house on a sulfur marsh full of brown carpet that turned green. There could have been something on the surface of the coin and that is what toned not the presence of silver. Sorry not a good test in my book. I will trust my eyes on this one and say this coin is not even MS Clad. 

[Taylor7]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:41 AM, J P M said:

Sulfur will change the color of lots of things. I had a house on a sulfur marsh full of brown carpet that turned green. There could have been something on the surface of the coin and that is what toned not the presence of silver. Sorry not a good test in my book. I will trust my eyes on this one and say this coin is not even MS Clad. 

in performing a scientific test we have what are called "controls". The idea is you do the test not only on the items of interest, but also on others to verify the test works as expected. I placed dozens of coins in the container, some of which were silver junk, some of which were clad junk, and some of which I suspected were silver because they passed other tests like the ping and tissue test. I divided the controls into two sub groups, one group was dipped in e-z-est, rinsed with high pressure water, then distilled water. This ensured there were no other contaminants that could have caused a change in color. The '71 here was also dipped and rinsed for the same reason. 

The coins I knew were silver behaved like the coin discussed here - yellow toning developed on the part of the coin protruding from the 2x2. 

The coins I knew were copper nickel clad did not develop any toning in the exposed area. 

The test revealed this coin is silver, conclusively. 

If you insist I am lying or the test performed is not conclusive, please answer the question "what would it take to convince you?" 

Everyone commenting in this thread insisting the coin is not silver and refusing to answer that question is clearly acting in bad faith. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:19 AM, J P M said:

Everyone who posted was more than willing to give you good advice but you insist this coin is something special.................. It is NOT............... I hope you do not try to sell it that way. 

He is trying to sell this coin as a rare struck on Ag clad planchet error for $9,100 on the Coin Marketplace of this board.

This is despite being told pics (attached) show a normal Cu-Ni coin which was verified by XRF testing that he doesn't believe (hence the invalid junk science "egg test") and refuses to do simple SG tests to verify it is not a rare error coin and isn't worth submitting to a TPG because he knows what the results will be.

It is baiting plain and simple, and imo that listing should be removed until he submits the coin to a TPG for attribution.

Edited October 31, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:00 AM, Taylor7 said:

in performing a scientific test we have what are called "controls". The idea is you do the test not only on the items of interest, but also on others to verify the test works as expected. I placed dozens of coins in the container, some of which were silver junk, some of which were clad junk, and some of which I suspected were silver because they passed other tests like the ping and tissue test. I divided the controls into two sub groups, one group was dipped in e-z-est, rinsed with high pressure water, then distilled water. This ensured there were no other contaminants that could have caused a change in color. The '71 here was also dipped and rinsed for the same reason. 

The coins I knew were silver behaved like the coin discussed here - yellow toning developed on the part of the coin protruding from the 2x2. 

The coins I knew were copper nickel clad did not develop any toning in the exposed area. 

The test revealed this coin is silver, conclusively. 

If you insist I am lying or the test performed is not conclusive, please answer the question "what would it take to convince you?" 

Everyone commenting in this thread insisting the coin is not silver and refusing to answer that question is clearly acting in bad faith. 

I can only comment on what I see I do not have the coin in my hand .from what I see it is a clad 1971 50 cent piece. Sorry. Send it in for real proof is all I can say. Good luck.

[Taylor7]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:42 AM, EagleRJO said:

He is trying to sell this coin as a rare struck on Au clad planchet error for $9,100 on the Coin Marketplace of this board.

This is despite being told pics show a normal Cu-Ni coin which was verified by XRF testing that he doesn't believe (hence the invalid junk science "egg test") and refuses to do simple SG tests to get an indication if it's worth submitting to a TPG because he knows what the results will be.

It is scam baiting plain and simple, and imo that listing should be removed until he submits the coin to a TPG for attribution.

I will report CG tests when I am able to obtain an accurate enough scale for that measurement to be of value, but even then unless I live stream a video of said test (live stream because a pre-recorded video might be edited) you will probably still insist I am lying. Below is the message I sent to forum moderators when I reported your post. GOOD DAY SIR. 

Quote

This is slander. EagleRJO insists sulfur does not cause silver to rapidly tone, which is many centuries old chemistry. there are countless Youtube videos demonstrating this effect, and with minimal cost and effort he could do the experiment himself but instead insists on calling it "junk science" without explanation and insists I am a scammer. Please prevent him from commenting on my posts, he ads nothing of value to the conversation and is an embarrassment to American numismatics.  

 

[Taylor7]

I would just like to add, if I was a scammer, why on earth would I have mentioned the XRF test? I could have just as easily told a story about going to a jewelry store and having it tested and being told it was silver. I mention that because I am an honest person, unlike the people who have wasted considerable time and effort attempting to deceive me. I wanted those people to know they had failed, and that they are pathetic for making such attempts. I want all of you to know that there are people in this world so petulant and pathetic they will corrupt anything and everything they can to punish those who challenge their cult and its dear leader. Do not let them tell you up is down, black is white, or any other obvious lie unchallenged. 

[EagleRJO]

I will save the moderators some time and quote what I told you, which I stand by as accurate.

On 10/22/2022 at 4:37 AM, EagleRJO said:

Which peer reviewed industry accepted scientific journal was this "test" obtained from, and what were the metallurgical qualifications of the authors. Anything else is just worthless home brewed junk science you could get from a 3 sec YT search [and not a substitute for industry accepted SG and other tests].

And even though there were legitimate questions about the validity of the claims that this coin was some type of very rare planchet error, and you kept offering excuses as to why the XRF results were wrong and you couldn't do basic industry accepted SG tests (with published and accepted specific gravity values for the various coins/alloys produced by the mint readily available), you still posted the coin on the Coin Marketplace of this board for a ridiculous amount.

Now that you have finally posted pics of the coin edge which do NOT show a solid silver edge all around as would be the case with a 40% Ag planchet (attached), it's obviously a normal Cu-Ni clad coin with no extra value where any testing would be pointless.

I hope the moderators do remove that listing which is posted without valid industry tests to back up the claims for an uncertified raw coin.

[At this point you have lost all credibility, at least with me, and I would need to see the verified TPG label with the error identified to believe you. So I am done with this thread and you.]

Edited October 31, 2022 by EagleRJO

[ldhair]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:00 AM, Taylor7 said:

"what would it take to convince you?" 

Send the coin to NGC for testing and grading. 

The egg test is of no value. The bright copper showing in the edge image, should be telling you the coin is not silver or silver clad. Trying to sell the coin without proper testing is not wise. NGC will give you the correct information.  

[RWB]

Sounds as if the only "correct" answer is by the possessor of the only "correct" and secure methodology. A competent density test will quickly determine if the coin is a silver alloy of CuNi clad copper. But --- who can do that "correctly" and be trusted by the possessor.

Too many self-approving constraints for reasonable work.

Edited October 26, 2022 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:09 PM, Taylor7 said:

ABSOLUTELY a CuNi clad coin. Absolutely zero doubt. Silver clad coins look nothing like this. If this is your best shot, you’re hosed. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:54 AM, ldhair said:

Send the coin to NGC for testing and grading. 

The egg test is of no value. The bright copper showing in the edge image, should be telling you the coin is not silver or silver clad. Trying to sell the coin without proper testing is not wise. NGC will give you the correct information.  

Or he could go to Amish country and subject his coin to the bovine flatulence test. Not only will it turn the coin colors, it’ll turn your HAIR colors, especially if you find some good bullsh*t, a topic with which our OP is well acquainted. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:37 PM, Taylor7 said:

are there microscopic differences in the texture and metal flow lines between silver and cu-ni that I could look for? 

No.

[VKurtB]

I’m not sure which “urines” me off more - that the OP is this stupid, or that he thinks everyone else is. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:09 PM, Taylor7 said:

What do you think is remarkable about this picture? To me, it’s the unnatural bright redness of the copper. There would BE NO RED if it were a silver clad. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 10/22/2022 at 7:50 PM, Taylor7 said:

If there was no silver it would not have toned like it did in the presence of sulfur. I did this test with a control group of silver coins and clad coins to be sure. 
 

so perhaps this coin is not simply a 71 struck on a 70 planchet? What else could it be? Foreign planchet? Test article? 
 

just assume it has silver since it toned like it did, even if you don’t want to buy it, even if you caution others from buying it, simply asserting I’m being dishonest isn’t going to solve this mystery. 

Copper ALSO tones in the presence of sulfur. And the surfaces of the coin are 75% copper. 

[Hoghead515]

On 10/25/2022 at 5:29 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m not sure which “urines” me off more - that the OP is this stupid, or that he thinks everyone else is. 

What does me is trying to sell it for $13,700. Get someone who dosent know anything about coins could actually buy into that BS. May post it somewhere else and take advantage of someone. Some older person,or anyone as far as that goes, wanting to invest in rare coins. May actually think its the real deal. I sure hope he has a concience. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Hoghead515