Potential RPM? 1964-D Jefferson 0

[GBrad]

Came across this one in a roll yesterday.  Without going into any detail, in the attempt NOT to sway judgement (which I know I cannot do for the experts here😁) , I'm just going to throw up some pics to get your valued opinions and feedback.  Admittedly, I do not have a good past track record with Jefferson RPM's. Hopefully this one may very well change my batting %. Thanks for your replies. 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by GBrad

[VKurtB]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:54 PM, GBrad said:

Came across this one in a roll yesterday.  Without going into any detail, in the attempt NOT to sway judgement (which I know I cannot do for the experts here😁) , I'm just going to throw up some pics to get your valued opinions and feedback.  Admittedly, I do not have a good past track record with Jefferson RPM's. Hopefully this one may very well change my batting %. Thanks for your replies. 

 

I like it. But I’m no RPM expert. 

[DWLange]

Strike doubling only, I'm afraid.

[GBrad]

On 9/28/2022 at 3:43 PM, DWLange said:

Strike doubling only, I'm afraid.

Where’s the nearest cliff???😞

[RonnieR131]

 Looks like the real deal to me. I would feel more comfortable if Mr. Lange responded after me instead of before me though. Good luck GBrad! 

[GBrad]

On 9/28/2022 at 4:10 PM, ronnie stein said:

 Looks like the real deal to me. I would feel more comfortable if Mr. Lange responded after me instead of before me though. Good luck GBrad! 

Thanks Ronnie.  Evidently this was caused by some type of anvil die chatter.  I have no other plausible explanation being that this mint mark is obviously on the reverse die.  No other devices on the reverse are affected in the least. Just too much of a defined and clean looking secondary leg on the D, no cut or shelflike appearance at all, and thickness of the loop on the D is wider than what I would consider normal for this year mint mark.  I give up pal..... Still batting 0%...  Going to pursue metal detecting and scuba diving......... Later...

[Coinbuf]

My initial impression is strike doubling, if it were an rpm and as the top impression is shifted to the right and down I would want to see some faint piece of the undermark both at the bottom and to the right inside of the D loop.   While the right loop does look "fatter" I cannot make out any visible separation there or at the bottom.   I could be very off base but that is my reasoning, good or bad.  

Have you posted this on the CONECA forum for additional opinions?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Coinbuf

[Henri Charriere]

🐓: .... something about rpm on a coin....

Q.A.:  ...revolutions per minute? you mean die rotation? I don't know anything about it.  check and see if a quality control expert is willing to talk about it, off the record....

🐓: .... I wonder if they ever caught the guy who stole all the steps?  just sayin.'   

[EagleRJO]

On 9/28/2022 at 4:43 PM, GBrad said:

I give up ... Going to pursue ... scuba diving

Then you almost get the bends deep wreck diving for treasure coins and switch back to collecting coins and go with modern circulated dollar coins with edge lettering like me where you don't have to worry about looking for ones with date/mark errors because after a few minor dings you can't read the years or mint marks anyway. 

On 9/28/2022 at 4:43 PM, GBrad said:

No other devices on the reverse are affected in the least.

Joking aside, for a 1964 nickel didn't they punch the date/mark separately? And if it was strike doubling wouldn't there be other signs of doubling from the strike?

Edited October 1, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GBrad]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:12 PM, EagleRJO said:

for a 1964 nickel didn't they punch the date/mark separately?

Yes sir. The mint mark for all coins prior to 1990 were hand punched. Obviously, some were on the obverse and some the reverse, year and denomination  dependent. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by GBrad

[EagleRJO]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:52 PM, GBrad said:

Yes sir. The mint mark for all coins prior to 1990 were hand punched.

Okay, that's what I thought. So, in my mind that nickel seems like it would be an RPM as there are no other signs of doubling that you may get from machine doubling. What am I missing here?

[GBrad]

On 9/28/2022 at 7:12 PM, EagleRJO said:

Then you almost get the bends deep wreck diving for treasure coins and switch back to collecting coins and go with modern circulated dollar coins with edge lettering like me where you don't have to worry about looking for ones with an RPM because after a few minor dings you can't read the mint marks anyway. 

I’m AOW certified to 100 ft. deep so yes, decompression sickness, AKA the bends, is definitely a potential hazard if normal ascent procedures are not followed! Been that deep a few times and a bit deeper and I absolutely love it!! I’d rather die while doing something I love as opposed to kicking the bucket over racking my head on a potential new discovery RPM that simply ain’t ever going to make me a dime!  I already have a pitiful Jeffy Nickel DDR first discovery attributed to me and I haven’t seen a penny from it as a result, haha.  Today will go, and tomorrow will come, with hopefully better things. 👍 RPM’s are totally overrated anyways😂

[EagleRJO]

I am just starting to expand my collecting now to include errors/varieties, and it's not about the money at all. But it would be nice to find an 1878 8TF "Mr. Happy" eagle feathers variety. 

[GBrad]

On 9/28/2022 at 6:10 PM, Coinbuf said:

My initial impression is strike doubling, if it were an rpm and as the top impression is shifted to the right and down I would want to see some faint piece of the undermark both at the bottom and to the right inside of the D loop.   While the right loop does look "fatter" I cannot make out any visible separation there or at the bottom.   I could be very off base but that is my reasoning, good or bad.  

Have you posted this on the CONECA forum for additional opinions?

Hey Chris. Here are another couple of pics. Best I can do with a phone and a loupe and working with lighting.  Maybe you can see what is inside the loop and what slightly appears as a faint line of separation on the loop. Not sure, but thanks!!!

[J P M]

It is cool looking Greg, but I don't see a match up for it anywhere? It may have had more defined lines years ago but time has taken its toll. Kinda like looking in the mirror nowadays.

[Coinbuf]

On 9/28/2022 at 9:05 PM, GBrad said:

Hey Chris. Here are another couple of pics. Best I can do with a phone and a loupe and working with lighting.  Maybe you can see what is inside the loop and what slightly appears as a faint line of separation on the loop. Not sure, but thanks!!!

 

 

I would say that this photo makes the best case for an undiscovered RPM, but it could also be used to make a case for die deterioration as well.   Very heavy flow lines off the design show the die was well into its lifespan.   Worth a shot to post it on CONECA and see if they think it's worth an in hand look.

[Oldhoopster]

On 9/29/2022 at 11:43 AM, Coinbuf said:

I would say that this photo makes the best case for an undiscovered RPM, but it could also be used to make a case for die deterioration as well.   Very heavy flow lines off the design show the die was well into its lifespan.   Worth a shot to post it on CONECA and see if they think it's worth an in hand look.

@Coinbuf post summarized my thoughts as well.  My first impression was an RPM but I found nothing on Wexlers doubleddie.com or varietyvista.com. The radial flow lines do give me pause, but it looks like something more than die deterioration. 

I'm not going to offer an opinion, because I don't know.  However, I like the suggestion of checking with the CONECA people.

[EagleRJO]

Just for my own edification how would die deterioration result in a well-defined secondary serif of the letter D mint mark (highlighted below) and not other things. My first gut reaction was strike doubling with the shelf like appearance of the mark, but there are no other signs of that anywhere around the mark or in the other close-up photos. Is that maybe the result of the hand punching with multiple strikes of the punch, where perhaps the first or last hand strike was off resulting in only a partial depth re-punching of the mark?

Edited September 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 7:46 AM, J P M said:

It is cool looking Greg, but I don't see a match up for it anywhere? It may have had more defined lines years ago but time has taken its toll. Kinda like looking in the mirror nowadays.

Hello JP. Correct sir, there is not a listing for this one if it actually does happen to be an RPM.  If so, it would be a new discovery. That is predominately why I chose to post it here for my friends to see and give me some much appreciated feedback.  I like the suggestions of posting it on Coneca which I may as well do and give it a shot.  I've been gunned down before, so hey...... no big deal if it happens again. 

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 2:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

Just for my own edification how would die deterioration result in a well-defined secondary serif of the letter D mint mark (highlighted below) and not other things. My first gut reaction was strike doubling with the shelf like appearance of the mark, but there are no other signs of that anywhere around the mark or in the other close-up photos. Is that maybe the result of the hand punching with multiple strikes of the punch, where perhaps the first or last hand strike was off resulting in only a partial depth re-punching of the mark?

You basically hit the nail on the head RJ and explained my thoughts verbatim.  One thing though, despite what the pics may show, there is not any shelf at all in regards to the secondary leg.  If you notice the shadows on both legs in the pic above, you will see the location of the shadows to be in the same area on each respective leg.  A flat and shelflike secondary leg would not produce the same looking shadow as it does. I'm pretty confident in saying that.  The additional leg has definition to it just like the whole leg on the "full" D mint mark.  And yes, the top serif is extremely well defined as you pointed out. Thanks for your comment and pointing that out in the picture. 

[VKurtB]

One thing these pictures remind me of is the fact that by 1964, the hubs were a total mess. Really subpar. The D mintmark sticks out like a sore thumb as the only feature in the vicinity that was worth a darn. “Yeah, but look how pretty all those new half dollars are!”

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 11:43 AM, Coinbuf said:

I would say that this photo makes the best case for an undiscovered RPM, but it could also be used to make a case for die deterioration as well.   Very heavy flow lines off the design show the die was well into its lifespan.   Worth a shot to post it on CONECA and see if they think it's worth an in hand look.

Thanks for the comment.  Yes, no doubt a late stage die, no disagreement there. Playing devil's advocate here Chris.....  Being that this is a later stage die, it would not make sense, in my humble opinion, for this other leg to have the excellent definition it does, especially the perfect top serif that RJO pointed out in his previous comment.  Now, if that top serif was flat and shelved or spread out thin, then yes, I would 100% concur that this would be a bonafide result of die deterioration. In my limited experience, I have not seen a form of die deterioration CREATE more definition such as this, but more so redact from the relief and definition of a design elements/devices on a coin. I may be completely off base in my diagnosis here, but these are my thoughts.  Thanks! 

[EagleRJO]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:36 PM, GBrad said:

You basically hit the nail on the head RJ and explained my thoughts verbatim.  One thing though, despite what the pics may show, there is not any shelf at all in regards to the secondary leg.  If you notice the shadows on both legs in the pic above, you will see the location of the shadows to be in the same area on each respective leg.  A flat and shelflike secondary leg would not produce the same looking shadow as it does. I'm pretty confident in saying that.  The additional leg has definition to it just like the whole leg on the "full" D mint mark.  And yes, the top serif is extremely well defined as you pointed out. Thanks for your comment and pointing that out in the picture. 

Interesting that the photo seems to show a little bit of a shelf like appearance, but that is not the way it actually looks. What is the saying ... a photo is worth 1,000 words, but a coin in hand is worth 1,000 photos. 

Good luck posting it on the other site more dedicated to errors. I hope you don't get AC/DC'd (Shot Down in Flames). 

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:55 PM, EagleRJO said:

Good luck posting it on the other site more dedicated to errors. I hope you don't get AC/DC'd (Shot Down in Flames).

Thanks RJ. It wouldn't be the first time for me in getting shot down my friend.  Gotta have thick skin in this hobby. It is what it is.  No big deal either way. 👍

[VKurtB]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:04 PM, GBrad said:

Thanks RJ. It wouldn't be the first time for me in getting shot down my friend.  Gotta have thick skin in this hobby. It is what it is.  No big deal either way. 👍

Never take the presence or absence of agreement on a variety personally. Heck, I’m so unimpressed by them I refuse to even look for them. Not my jam. And I even have the right type of stereo microscope for looking for them. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by VKurtB

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 4:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Never take the presence or absence of agreement on a variety personally.

Good advice to anyone collecting errors and varieties.  I got over that awhile ago.  If not, I wouldn't be involved in this hobby today. 

[GBrad]

On 9/29/2022 at 4:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Heck, I’m so unimpressed by them I refuse to even look for them.

There's always time for change..... just saying.....

[Coinbuf]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:48 PM, GBrad said:

Thanks for the comment.  Yes, no doubt a late stage die, no disagreement there. Playing devil's advocate here Chris.....  Being that this is a later stage die, it would not make sense, in my humble opinion, for this other leg to have the excellent definition it does, especially the perfect top serif that RJO pointed out in his previous comment.  Now, if that top serif was flat and shelved or spread out thin, then yes, I would 100% concur that this would be a bonafide result of die deterioration. In my limited experience, I have not seen a form of die deterioration CREATE more definition such as this, but more so redact from the relief and definition of a design elements/devices on a coin. I may be completely off base in my diagnosis here, but these are my thoughts.  Thanks! 

To clarify, I'm thinking that the line on the loop and possibly at the bottom of the loop could have happened due to the die state, not the leg.    As I'm sure you have I have seen some strange lines and features form from a late die state strike.   Often you will see raised lines as if the die sucked the metal up as it released the coin after striking, many of the coins that are asked about here have this type of anomaly.   

I cannot tell for sure if the line that is showing on the loop is raised or lower in relief, the advanced level of circulation would normally remove any raised metal left from the strike.   However that is a very protected area of the coin so that played a part in my thinking of die deterioration.