Is it cleaned. 0

[jimbo27]

I was thinking of bidding on this coin but am afraid it might have been cleaned, any input would be welcomed. Thanks jimbo27.

[Mr.Bill347]

Zero luster Jimbo and yes it has been cleaned.

[J P M]

Ungraded 1878 CC is a big chance jimbo and yes it looks like it was cleaned at one time. Or at least made to look like it is old and cleaned.

Edited September 6, 2022 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

I agree cleaned or made to look that way as there Iis a dull grey appearance without a lot of wear, hairline scratches like to the right of the head, and crud within and around the characters and devices.

That mint mark looks wrong to, so I would be very careful with that one. Might be a counterfeit.

[EagleRJO]

I took a look at varieties for an 1878-CC Morgan on VamWorld (http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1878-CC_VAMs) and I don't see a match for that mint mark which is rotated right. I think its a counterfeit.

Maybe someone else can give a second opinion on that and if a verified fake post the listing in the "Counterfeit Coins" thread so hopefully something can be done about that.

Edited September 6, 2022 by EagleRJO

[DWLange]

I'm seeing a coin that appears neither cleaned nor counterfeit. It appears to match VAM-9, though not in the die state with polishing lines:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1878-CC_VAM-9

[jimbo27]

Thank you all for the information.

[EagleRJO]

On 9/6/2022 at 4:37 PM, DWLange said:

I'm seeing a coin that appears neither cleaned nor counterfeit. It appears to match VAM-9, though not in the die state with polishing lines:

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1878-CC_VAM-9

@DWLange I did look at that VAM-9. The obverse looks about right, and looks like it has the clipped star, but I think the reverse is off. I agree the listed coin may just be an early state die that does not have the polish lines between the O and the wreath. However, when I overlayed the two mint marks and DOL in dollar the rotation was a bit off (e.g. for the listed coin the left C in the mark is a little closer to the wreath, and the right one was a little lower).  Attached is the example early state 1878-CC VAM-9 with no line at the O and an enlarged mark.

Also, the shape of the C's is off as the listed one has a smaller space inside the letters, and has a smaller vertical gap on the right side of the C's vs the example with no line at the O. Later dies with the O line seem to have less of a gap. Plus, if you look at the D in dollar the listed one has little vertical extensions at the top left and lower left of the D that don't match the Vam-9.  See attached enlargement of the mark and DOL for the listed coin.

It looks to me that the obv and rev don't match, and maybe they used a similar but different rev which is a classic sign.  Let me know if I am seeing things where there may be an explanation for that.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

Also, aren't the vertical lines like on the obv to the right of the neck hair a sign of cleaning?

[DWLange]

There is a slight wipe mark that could cause this coin to be Details graded, but I wouldn't call it cleaned overall.

[EagleRJO]

Thanks, and maybe the OP's coin took a bad hit at the mark and D to spread and move them a bit to make them look a little different?

[Sandon]

   I refrained from getting into this discussion for a while, as you all seemed certain that the coin was cleaned and/or counterfeit based solely on a single set of photos. The coin as photographed appears to me to be a lightly circulated (AU 50 or so) and likely genuine 1878-CC Morgan dollar with a natural shade of gray and good overall appearance for such a coin.  Coins pick up patches of hairlining from coming into contact with rough surfaces, and those I can see aren't sufficient for me to call the coin "cleaned".  My opinion could change if I could examine the actual coin and view it at different angles, lightings and magnifications.  If a picture is worth a thousand words, the opportunity to view an actual coin is worth a thousand photos!

   As for the coin being counterfeit (or having an added mint mark) because the mint mark position doesn't appear to exactly match that of any known VAM variety, bear in mind that the VAM books and the "vamworld" site don't necessarily show all varieties, especially for a coin having a mintage over 2.2 million.  New VAMS continue to be discovered and others delisted as die states of other varieties. A slightly different "mint mark tilted right" would only attract the attention of a real VAM enthusiast, which the vast majority of collectors aren't.  I doubt that grading services check Morgans submitted to them for matches to VAM varieties unless they were submitted for attribution.  Here again you'd need to see the actual coin to form a proper opinion.

[EagleRJO]

Thanks for the comments Sandon, much appreciated. I was wondering why you didn't chime in since you have a good handle on Morgans.

On 9/7/2022 at 5:48 PM, Sandon said:

... you all seemed certain that the coin was cleaned and/or counterfeit based solely on a single set of photos

Well, I guess that is all we had without the benefit of having the coin in-hand which I agree is the ultimate arbiter.  And DWLange didn't agree it was cleaned, just me and a few others.  Interesting that a lightly circulated coin can have that appearance and those vertical hairlines without being an indication of cleaning.  I have seen less than that flagged by the TPGs as Details - Cleaned, with just the hint of some hairlines in one spot where I was scratching my head as to why.

And about a possible new variety for that raw coin, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.  I will leave that up the VAM enthusiasts to take a risk on that and submit it as a possible new one since it could come back in a coin body bag.

Edited September 8, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2022 at 4:48 PM, Sandon said:

If a picture is worth a thousand words, the opportunity to view an actual coin is worth a thousand photos!

Yes!!!!! I wish I had said that. I see waaaaaay too much reliance on photos on this board. It is a TERRIBLE idea.  Yes, I know it’s tough for lots of folks to travel, but darn it, it is sooooo worth it in the end. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by VKurtB

[Sandon]

   EagleRJO--As I recall you have the 7th (current) edition of the ANA grading guide.  Take a look at the table on p.287 for grading uncirculated Morgan dollars.  There is a column for "hairlines" that indicates the amount that may be visible without magnification in various uncirculated grades from MS 60 through MS 65, with some visible under magnification in grades as high as MS 67!  There are similar tables for other large coins that were subjected to bag storage.  Coins also acquire stray or patch hairlines in circulation. (It's likely that at least some coins with "continuous hairlining over surfaces" as allowed in the ANA guide for MS 60-61 are details graded "cleaned" by the grading services.)

   Hairlining from an abrasive "cleaning" is more intense, tends to be in straight or curving lines, and tends to give the coin an unnatural looking sheen when viewed with the naked eye.  You may be able to see this by taking a piece of pocket change and rubbing an area of it hard with a pencil eraser or other rough object. 

   

[EagleRJO]

I see that in the ANA standards, and I am on the side of the fence its acceptable along with a light cleaning and even a light dip for older coins. But I have just been amazed at what I have been seeing recently for some of the Details - Cleaned graded coins where I am left scratching my head. So, if I suspect cleaning from a possible indicator like the vertical hairlines, I would point it out.

And just because I think a raw coin has had a light cleaning or even a very light dip, particularly for older coins, I don't automatically reject that as an option because that was such a common practice in the past. I just like buying raw coins eyes wide open, and I guess just assume others would want to do the same.

Edited September 8, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 9/7/2022 at 4:06 PM, DWLange said:

There is a slight wipe mark that could cause this coin to be Details graded, but I wouldn't call it cleaned overall.

I'm glad to see that not all consider wear and tear cleaning. I see so many at the auctions that look fine to me with a cleaned label on them. This coin was on the edge to me with all the fine lines by the nose, cheek and jaw. Also being a 1878 CC a widely copied coin I wanted Jimbo to be cautious and not rush into a purchase without more members chiming in with there thoughts.

 

On 9/7/2022 at 7:45 PM, VKurtB said:

If a picture is worth a thousand words, the opportunity to view an actual coin is worth a thousand photos!

. I myself will only buy ungraded coins in person never online.