Henri Charriere Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 (edited) Coming up on the auction block at the Long Beach Show, September 30, 2022, is the above item, No. 161, 27.88 ozs. (Type 3 hallmark) as offered by auction. or auctions.vegascoindealer.com The current bid (as of post time) is $27,500, with estimates given ranging from $26K-$44K. I do not collect these. In point of fact, I was unaware the U.S. Mint, or any of its branches "minted" these. I assume a slab might not be entirely out of the question. My only question is how does one "grade" these? Obviously, a pristine bar would be collector worthy, but who or what do bar collectors consult for guidance. Just curious. [Sorry I cannot provide a link; I have only been a collector for 50 years.] Edited September 6, 2022 by Quintus Arrius Additional information GoldFinger1969 and CoinJockey73 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/5/2022 at 10:27 PM, Quintus Arrius said: Coming up on the auction block at the Long Beach Show, September 30, 2022, is the above item, No. 161, 27.88 ozs. (Type 3 hallmark) as offered by auction. or auctions.vegascoindealer.com The current bid (as of post time) is $27,500, with estimates given ranging from $26K-$44K. I do not collect these. In point of fact, I was unaware the U.S. Mint, or any of its branches "minted" these. I assume a slab might not be entirely out of the question. My only question is how does one "grade" these? Obviously, a pristine bar would be collector worthy, but who or what do bar collectors consult for guidance. Just curious. [Sorry I cannot provide a link; I have only been a collector for 50 years.] ...usually not graded...unaltered probably a better way to go.... GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 The Mints routinely made precious metal bars from 1857 forward. These were sold to dental fabricators, silversmiths and other trades who wanted small quantities of metal of known purity. To be accurate these are NOT Ingots - they are "fine metal bars." (An "ingot" is a specific dimension metal bar once used to roll out strips for cutting blanks.) GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted September 6, 2022 Author Share Posted September 6, 2022 @RWB: In my mind's eye I thought a silver bar like those bearing the Engelhard hallmark were standard size and filed down after production. But this has an odd weight making it unique. Henceforth, I am going refer to these bars, as "outgots," as they are custom-made pours, with varying dimensions. I assume the year the Mint began fabrication of these bars (1857) and the sinking of the S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA, which carried a boatload of such bars, many from hitherto unknown assayers, was entirely coincidental. 🤔 GoldFinger1969 and CoinJockey73 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted September 6, 2022 Share Posted September 6, 2022 On 9/6/2022 at 7:22 PM, Quintus Arrius said: as they are custom-made pours, They were not really custom made. Small bars were poured from nearly empty crucibles so that there was less waste to remelt. This was common for gold and silver, but usually 5 oz or more. Little different than private refinery bars....but cheaper to purchase for merchants. Henri Charriere and CaptHenway 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptHenway Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 They are kidding on that estimate, right? I used to own this little 49.04 Tr. Oz. New York Assay Office bar dated 1950 in my birth year set and it was not worth multiples of melt! GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member: Seasoned Veteran DWLange Posted September 7, 2022 Member: Seasoned Veteran Share Posted September 7, 2022 Mint bars have been bringing very high prices for several years now. I wanted one from the San Francisco Mint (my home town) and never even got close. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nouzillet Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 The San Francisco Branch Mint was returning gold bars to her customers right from the start in April of 1854. For the year, only a handful of these returned bars were refined, most were unparted with no attempt being made to separate the silver from the native gold. I know that the Philadelphia Mint had returned gold bars poured from California gold to her customers in 1853. They were reportedly stamped with their weight and fineness and also carried a glued on paper label with them, or sort of a memorandum. Beginning in 1856, the San Francisco Mint also paid out some silver bars to her depositors. If the S.S. Central America had sunk in 1856, there would have been a decent chance that she carried some San Francisco Branch Mint gold bars in her treasure hold. In 1857, the S.F.B.M. had returned zero gold bars to her customers. Letter from the Archives Mint of the United States Philadelphia November 5, 1853 Sir: I forward to you on the 3rd instant, by Adams & Co. Express, a Box containing the stamps for the gold bars-letters, and figures, and a large set of figures for the Melter & Refiner, which I hope will reach you in good order and in time for your contemplated commencement of operations on the 1st of February next. I am respectfully Yours, (signed) James Ross Snowden Director. Dr. L.A. Birdsall Supt. Branch Mint Cal DWL my late grandmother and father were both born in San Francisco.... GoldFinger1969 and Henri Charriere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Nice historical quote! Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member: Seasoned Veteran DWLange Posted September 7, 2022 Member: Seasoned Veteran Share Posted September 7, 2022 I could see a bar from the 1850s being worth a lot, but the ones I sought were from the 1950s and still priced very high. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 On 9/6/2022 at 8:04 PM, CaptHenway said: They are kidding on that estimate, right? I used to own this little 49.04 Tr. Oz. New York Assay Office bar dated 1950 in my birth year set and it was not worth multiples of melt! Your bar is gold; theirs is silver. I have no idea if the projected price range is right for silver, that bar, or for the number actually fabricated. CoinJockey73 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted September 7, 2022 Author Share Posted September 7, 2022 [I hope that much esteemed member, the one brandishing "band-width," chimes in. I am trying to redeem myself here with information which would be of general interest to the collector community.] CoinJockey73 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted September 7, 2022 Share Posted September 7, 2022 Small bars were made to be used, not stored. So...they were used and very few survive. hence the unusual demand. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted September 28, 2022 Author Share Posted September 28, 2022 FWIW... For those who may have a passing interest in [what member RWB more properly terms a "fine metal bar" as opposed to an "ingot,"] the current bid on this 1946 silver item has moved up a few notches to $31,000, as of post time. The spread in estimates given remains in the 26K - 44K range. The auction is scheduled for this Friday, September 30, 2022 in Long Beach, CA. at 17:00 hours PT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihavecoins Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 Is it possible to grade or authenticate the 1946 Philadelphia bars? It looks like there is a new one on the open market! The prices on these bars have skyrocketed and are in high demand! 1946Philly | I Have Coins -Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 1 Author Share Posted May 1 On 4/30/2024 at 8:23 PM, ihavecoins said: Is it possible to grade or authenticate the 1946 Philadelphia bars? It looks like there is a new one on the open market! The prices on these bars have skyrocketed and are in high demand! 1946Philly | I Have Coins -Rod Hey Rod, Henri (Ahn-REE) here. With silver spot at $25 or $26, last I checked, it wouldn't be surprising if the ("fine siver bar," per RWB) is up for sale. Plus it's got nostalgic value. 🤣 Incidentally, I never did find out what the gavel price was. It's too bad Kurt is too busy making money elsewhere. I heard he loves Long Beach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 How much of a premium do folks pay for these ? Is there a reason -- it's not even a coin or commemorative, just an irregular-shaped block of metal AFAIK ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C1one Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 So this weight is obscure, since 25+ weights were meant to be melted down by someone who worked with silver.. not many of these survived. These end up as center pieces in people's collections. These rarely come to market.. I mean even the 5-8 oz bars are hitting almost 20k alone GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted May 1 Author Share Posted May 1 On 4/30/2024 at 11:40 PM, C1one said: So this weight is obscure, since 25+ weights were meant to be melted down by someone who worked with silver.. not many of these survived. These end up as center pieces in people's collections. These rarely come to market.. I mean even the 5-8 oz bars are hitting almost 20k alone I would guess the inexorable climb of spot silver is the impetus for profit-taking. As of this morning, May 1, silver was $26.47/oz. and this item has historical sjgnificance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted May 1 Share Posted May 1 Cast bars from any of the mints or New York Assay Office were made individually and marked accordingly. M&R kept them within a range of weights simply by using the same iron molds. The employees were very good at this resulting in only small variations. The bars were raw material for manufacturers as well as bankers. There was no premium on these when made and no known collectors. Many small business users simply melted coins as needed. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olympicsos Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 When did this practice of the mint selling bars stop? When the NYC assay office closed? It would have been nice to still have an assay office in NYC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 On 5/3/2024 at 1:34 PM, olympicsos said: When did this practice of the mint selling bars stop? When the NYC assay office closed? It would have been nice to still have an assay office in NYC! I'm not sure....Major changes occurred when price controls were lifted on silver and then later on gold. (I think (?) silver certs could be turned in for silver bars, not just the little capsules of silver grains, up to the end of the redemption period.) The government got into the "assay office" business to supply gold for coinage, and to ensure that miners had a place to get full value for their products. The system also obviated export of raw gold during which "hidden charges" in other countries ate into American profits. Henri Charriere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted May 4 Share Posted May 4 On 5/1/2024 at 6:35 AM, Henri Charriere said: I would guess the inexorable climb of spot silver is the impetus for profit-taking. As of this morning, May 1, silver was $26.47/oz. and this item has historical sjgnificance. ...oh spare us Lord Hermes, why do u subject us to the inane?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
