Off center capped die 1944 wheat cent 2 2

[Melior Invenidiste]

Am I naming the specimen correctly?

[RWB]

A guess -- based on the photo only -- is a fake "error." Also, I suggest you look up the meaning of a "capped die" coin.

[Conder101]

If it is real it is just an off-center coin, but I agree with Roger, it looks "off" and I suspect a fake error.

[Coinbuf]

On 7/6/2022 at 1:45 AM, Melior Invenidiste said:

Am I naming the specimen correctly?

No.

[CaptHenway]

I think it is a genuine off-center error. The scratches were probably caused by it getting caught in a counting machine because the strike bent it, and some workman used a nail to dig it out of the machine.

[Henri Charriere]

Fake error... something about the juxtaposition of those two terms only invites attention and further inquiry. It is not a counterfeit. (What would be the point? Besides, all the basic elements of the original are there to see for comparison.) How to explain the fate accorded this otherwise unremarkable coin? I cannot. I don't believe I have ever seen a similar grossly exaggerated relief. One thing for sure, none of our resident creators of oddities has the means to produce this. I do not mean to malign the reputations of those who dabble in such things. I just feel what I see here goes well beyond their capabilities to produce such a genetic mutation.

[Conder101]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It is not a counterfeit. (What would be the point?

An error sells for more than a normal strike, especially on a common date such as this one.  And yes the Chinese HAVE been making fake error coins, with off-centers being a commonly made "error".

[Henri Charriere]

I want to make sure the words I use to express how I feel about this touchy matter are accurate.  An error made unintentionally, perhaps inadvertently, is an error. Now a purposely made error, in my view, relinquishes its right to be called an error. Counterfeit error sounds silly. It is more of an imposter masquerading as a genuine error. If it is not genuine, it should be referred to as a reject. An error is an oddity, however produced, made by the U.S. Mint. If it's genuine, it is an error.  If it's not, it's not. It cannot be authenticated, certified, or even passed in change. The term "genuine off-center error" as described by @CaptHenway comes closest to how I feel. To suggest otherwise is to intimate no such "coin" can be produced by the Mint under any circumstances. I cannot envision anyone going to such lengths to produce an error.  This may simply be one of those instances where the highly implausible became possible.  The coin skirts the boundary between the outer edge of acceptability and the leading edge of intolerance.  What is this old coin's provenance? Where has it been the past 78 years? Where are it's brothers and sisters? 🤔 

[zadok]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:47 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I want to make sure the words I use to express how I feel about this touchy matter are accurate.  An error made unintentionally, perhaps inadvertently, is an error. Now a purposely made error, in my view, relinquishes its right to be called an error. Counterfeit error sounds silly. It is more of an imposter masquerading as a genuine error. If it is not genuine, it should be referred to as a reject. An error is an oddity, however produced, made by the U.S. Mint. If it's genuine, it is an error.  If it's not, it's not. It cannot be authenticated, certified, or even passed in change. The term "genuine off-center error" as described by @CaptHenway comes closest to how I feel. To suggest otherwise is to intimate no such "coin" can be produced by the Mint under any circumstances. I cannot envision anyone going to such lengths to produce an error.  This may simply be one of those instances where the highly implausible became possible.  The coin skirts the boundary between the outer edge of acceptability and the leading edge of intolerance.  What is this old coin's provenance? Where has it been the past 78 years? Where are it's brothers and sisters? 🤔 

...if u r not careful u will use up all of ur words n be mute for the rest of ur subscription...simply put, its a counterfeit of a genuine error, period...not made at the US mint....

[CaptHenway]

I looked at it again and I see ZERO reasons to doubt it.

[Henri Charriere]

@Melior Invenidiste:

I am trying to put myself in your place in light of what's been said.  It is an interesting piece.  What do you plan to do with it now?  (If I bump into Fred Weinberg on the subway I will refer him to your thread.  Errors is his area of expertise.)   😉 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:10 PM, Conder101 said:

An error sells for more than a normal strike, especially on a common date such as this one.  

[One day, @RWB will find some official-looking documents in Fujian province, China, and have them translated into English back in the United States. Herewith a crucial snippet:

Worker at foundry:  "Okay, boss. All done."

Supervisor:  "I said 1943, you [expletive deleted]! Not 1944.  YOU'RE FIRED!"

Apparently, the worker spoke Cantonese.  It was all a misunderstanding. Mystery solved.]   🐓 

[VKurtB]

Careful. If we’re going to start excluding intentionally made errors at various mints, the whole sub-specialty might just collapse. There is just too much out there that have no other explanation. Mint employees were CREATING the stuff, as if on order. Fred Weinberg basically said as much in at least TWO video interviews. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:23 PM, VKurtB said:

Careful. If we’re going to start excluding intentionally made errors at various mints, the whole sub-specialty might just collapse. There is just too much out there that have no other explanation. Mint employees were CREATING the stuff, as if on order. Fred Weinberg basically said as much in at least TWO video interviews. 

...a US mint struck nail comes to mind...i defy anyone(other than QA) to explain how that could accidently occur...ditto the del monte currency note....

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:18 PM, zadok said:

...a US mint struck nail comes to mind...i defy anyone(other than QA) to explain how that could accidently occur...ditto the del monte currency note....

The nail has never been hard for me to understand. The coins strike horizontally and carpentry was going on above the presses. Simple gravity. It ends up in a ballistic pallet bag and gets discovered at one of the rolling contractors, likely N.F. String of Harrisburg,PA. The striking rate is like a Thompson Machine Gun. We often think of coin striking being a vertical action. For circulating coins, it is not. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The nail has never been hard for me to understand. The coins strike horizontally and carpentry was going on above the presses. Simple gravity. It ends up in a ballistic pallet bag and gets discovered at one of the rolling contractors, likely N.F. String of Harrisburg,PA. The striking rate is like a Thompson Machine Gun. We often think of coin striking being a vertical action. For circulating coins, it is not. 

...once again ur Harrisburg connection comes into play...just as long as u didnt dabble on 3 mile island all is well....

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:30 PM, zadok said:

...once again ur Harrisburg connection comes into play...just as long as u didnt dabble on 3 mile island all is well....

Just rode a train right by it twice a day for quite a few years. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:54 PM, VKurtB said:

.... We often think of coin striking being a vertical action. For circulating coins, it is not. 

I recall you stating this before but I could have sworn I had seen footage somewhere of one of those giant presses in action... oops! Maybe it was planchets being punched out of long ribbons of pressed metal being fed into it.  I like your description of Royal Mint operations--minus the danger of severed fingers.    

[RWB]

Has it been authenticated by one of the major companies to do such things?

[Conder101]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:47 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Counterfeit error sounds silly. It is more of an imposter masquerading as a genuine error.

As a counterfeit coin is an imposter masquerading as a genuine coin.

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:47 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

If it is not genuine, it should be referred to as a reject.

Except it isn't a "reject" it is exactly what they intended

 

On 7/20/2022 at 3:54 PM, VKurtB said:

We often think of coin striking being a vertical action. For circulating coins, it is not

It was at the time the supposed dime on nail would have been struck.  Horizontal striking has only been going on for about 20 years.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:08 AM, Conder101 said:

As a counterfeit coin is an imposter masquerading as a genuine coin.....

Except it isn't a "reject" it is exactly what they intended

The boss told the worker 1943.  The worker misunderstood.  IT IS NOT QUITE  WHAT THE BOSS INTENDED.  [I only regret I am no longer permitted to call you, the Mighty C; to date, no one has contradicted you.]  😉  

[VKurtB]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:08 AM, Conder101 said:

As a counterfeit coin is an imposter masquerading as a genuine coin.

 

Except it isn't a "reject" it is exactly what they intended

 

It was at the time the supposed dime on nail would have been struck.  Horizontal striking has only been going on for about 20 years.

The story on the dime on a nail first hit in 2015. When it happened, we can’t know. The date area of the design was not present. 

[zadok]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:38 PM, VKurtB said:

The story on the dime on a nail first hit in 2015. When it happened, we can’t know. The date area of the design was not present. 

...yea but if u give roger $75K he can tell where the nail was made and when....

[Henri Charriere]

 

On 7/22/2022 at 2:42 PM, zadok said:

...yea but if u give roger $75K he can tell where the nail was made and when....

This is cold shot!  When I was being drawn-and-quartered, @RWB intervened on my behalf, and I lived long eough to return from Siberia.  🐓 

[zadok]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

 

This is cold shot!  When I was being drawn-and-quartered, @RWB intervened on my behalf, and I lived long eough to return from Siberia.  🐓 

...u r correct i'll change it to $85K...i trust the frost bite has subsided....

[CaptHenway]

I still say genuine error.

[VKurtB]

I understand the technology of making normal fakes. I’m not sure I understand how to make fake errors so well. 

[Hoghead515]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:42 PM, zadok said:

...yea but if u give roger $75K he can tell where the nail was made and when....

I could probably also figure that out for $75K.