1964 Kennedy Half Dollar Die Cracks Look Similar Same As SP 1 1

[Peaceman1]

Hello,

I have a Few 1964 Kennedy Half Dollars that are quite interesting.  One I have has a definite mark under the 4 and appears very similar to SMS SP Special Strike.  The other has die cracks/breaks in exact multiple locations as graded examples display.  I have enlarged the graded examples and they have the same in same locations.  I realize that same type coin may have similar however multiple? 

I am posting image of my coin in one area with a comparison image of same location on a graded image of the SP.  If someone would enlighten me on this I would appreciate it.  Cracks run from rim to tops of letters etc as shown.  This is only one area, there are more that also match exactly as this graded specimen. 

Thank You!

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James Zyskowski]

Howdy Peaceman. Glad to see you found this forum. 
I am going to welcome you and then let you discover how many of us are over here. Dozens of members at collectors forum (pcgs) also haunt here. 
Over there your 64 Kennedy wasn’t a SMS and last you said you were sending it in for grading.  
  I like to consider this my home group and I’ll be danged , if you are going to interact here , I suggest you watch how  you comport yourself. 
 

Oh. My elderly eyes didn’t notice, you got yourself banned over there 😉🦫🙀
If you try real hard you can get banned here too 

Just watch it, I got my eyes on you 👀

Edited March 30, 2022 by James Zyskowski

[Peaceman1]

Thank You!

Simple question on this...  Not debating if SMS.    By the way, that coin with mark under the 4 is not this coin and in B-more to have looked at with Certified Letter of Origin along with some nice Morgans at the Expo.

Moving on...  Does anybody agree that marks on top of letters, rim, and other match up on these images?  All I need to inquire about.  very basic and simple?

 

[Oldhoopster]

You were pushing this coin for months on the other site, even after bona fide experts, who handled authentic 64SMS for auction companies said you don't have one.

Weren't you advised to send it in for authentication if you disagreed with the opinions?  Please do not turn this into another thread were you add a few additional pics every month to get a bump and keep trolling along.  Send it in for the only opinion that matters, the TPG

The host of this chat board has a number of expert graders and authenticators who would be more than happy to certify your coin.  Don't mess around with the great unwashed masses of the chat board denizens, go right to the experts.  Send it in. Now

[Just Bob]

On 3/30/2022 at 12:30 PM, Peaceman1 said:

Does anybody agree that marks on top of letters, rim, and other match up on these images?  All I need to inquire about.  very basic and simple?

 

No, they do not. Those appear to be completely different dies.

[RWB]

On 3/30/2022 at 12:34 PM, Peaceman1 said:

SMS SP Special Strike

No such critter. Simply normal coins made off new dies. Many thousands exist from all the new dies put into service during mintage.

[VKurtB]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:39 PM, RWB said:

No such critter. Simply normal coins made off new dies. Many thousands exist from all the new dies put into service during mintage.

The plain unfortunate truth is that WHATEVER the so-called SMS SP Special Strike coins are (again agreeing with Roger here) they are a closed set. There are no more to be found, by definition and by agreement, literally. It doesn’t matter. It never really did. You can have a 1964 Kennedy struck from the very same dies later the same DAY and they aren’t going to give you that authentication. They just aren’t. It’s a provenance matter, not a technical one. 

[Just Bob]

On 3/31/2022 at 11:00 AM, VKurtB said:

The plain unfortunate truth is that WHATEVER the so-called SMS SP Special Strike coins are (again agreeing with Roger here) they are a closed set. There are no more to be found, by definition and by agreement, literally. It doesn’t matter. It never really did. You can have a 1964 Kennedy struck from the very same dies later the same DAY and they aren’t going to give you that authentication. They just aren’t. It’s a provenance matter, not a technical one. 

And it would be very frustrating indeed to find that coin and know that it had all of the right markers yet discover that it will never be worth what the SP labeled coins are.

[VKurtB]

On 3/31/2022 at 11:23 AM, Just Bob said:

And it would be very frustrating indeed to find that coin and know that it had all of the right markers yet discover that it will never be worth what the SP labeled coins are.

Some people simply can’t resist the search for the metaphorical Holy Grail. “Ima find me the next one.” That would be fine if the hobby’s practices were “fair”. Well they ain’t. There are no objective standards all too often. This, like many other odd coin subtypes are 100% “Potter Stewart” - “I know it when I see it.” Well I am almost kinda sorta okay with that, except for the fact that even fewer people’s opinions count than at the Supreme Court. Folks like @RWB are NEVER going to be okay with that. He apparently can’t even speak at a cocktail reception without handing out footnotes citing his sources for every utterance. I dunno. But I DO accept that some people just know stuff without needing to document everything. 

[RWB]

Thousands exist, but mixed with the rest of coinage as is normal. The coins from the Adams Estate and at the Smithsonian were simply saved just after striking. Further, since every pair of new dies is slightly different, any true "first strike" coins you fined will not necessarily match the phony "Special Strike" ones being peddled to the ignorant. (The knowledgeable numismatists will find similar first strike coins in the Mitchelson Collection and a couple of un-touched museum collections.)

[VKurtB]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:33 PM, RWB said:

Thousands exist, but mixed with the rest of coinage as is normal. The coins from the Adams Estate and at the Smithsonian were simply saved just after striking. Further, since every pair of new dies is slightly different, any true "first strike" coins you fined will not necessarily match the phony "Special Strike" ones being peddled to the ignorant. (The knowledgeable numismatists will find similar first strike coins in the Mitchelson Collection and a couple of un-touched museum collections.)

Agree with all that except for the spelling of “find”. “Fined” is a totally different verb. But I do disagree with Roger on why he is right in this. To him, it’s about no documentation existing. I don’t find that important at all. He’s right because the coins are what the coins are, not because documentation is lacking. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by VKurtB

[FlyingAl]

My opinions on these coins are that they are no more special than any coin struck form new dies, the only exception being that they were saved after striking, and as such, those that were saved were traceable to the Adam's estate. 

It's by chance that there is documentation to track these to Eva Adams. As such, I do not think that there is a need for documentation to exist if there is sufficient evidence to suggest that a coin is indeed special (I think there are a few early proofs out there that are clearly proofs but have no official documentation). These 1964 coins, however, are not even close to sufficient in surface quality and distinguishability to satisfy that need. They are not a "SMS" strike.

However, should these truly be "SMS" coins, and I think they are not, I believe there would be reason for the Secret Service to go after them as they should not have left the mint. In theory, they should not have existed at all if these were "SMS" coins, and as such the lack of Secret Service intervention further proves that these are nothing like what many articles/videos make them out to be. A bit of critical thinking and looking at images makes it clear that these were never trial strikes for the SMS coins of 1965-1967. NGC also seems to share my view on these. 

[RWB]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:09 PM, FlyingAl said:

My opinions on these coins are that they are no more special than any coin struck form new dies, the only exception being that they were saved after striking, and as such, those that were saved were traceable to the Adam's estate. 

Correct. Others might have been saved by sharp-eyed collectors who noticed the superior sharpness of first strike coins off ANY set of dies -- of ANY denomination.

[Hoghead515]

No SMS. 

[Peaceman1]

Thank you all on responses.  wasn't really trying to say was SMS.  Just if the die cracks looked very same in same locations.  

I agree with all said on these.  I guess in my mind, if there are oodles more of other denominations graded as singles not from sets not linked to those dozen or so sets from the Adams estate.  Why so difficult to have a kennedy from the wild graded?  It baffles me.  Like, you can find a different denomination, grades right on thru but kennedy... 

I would think if was going to be confiscated on these, that would have happened already by now.  The door was opened I guess it could be said. 

I have a nice looking coin I'm content with.  

Going back to my Morgan & Peace Dollars...   More Fun!  

 

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:23 PM, Peaceman1 said:

Thank you all on responses.  wasn't really trying to say was SMS.  Just if the die cracks looked very same in same locations.  

I agree with all said on these.  I guess in my mind, if there are oodles more of other denominations graded as singles not from sets not linked to those dozen or so sets from the Adams estate.  Why so difficult to have a kennedy from the wild graded?  It baffles me.  Like, you can find a different denomination, grades right on thru but kennedy... 

I would think if was going to be confiscated on these, that would have happened already by now.  The door was opened I guess it could be said. 

I have a nice looking coin I'm content with.  

Going back to my Morgan & Peace Dollars...   More Fun!  

 

 

 

Congratulations if you have a nice 1964 that you think is special. I too have some really nice ones, to go along with a lot of garbage examples, although fully as they came off the dies. They overproduced the bejabbers out of 1964 Kennedy halves, and overworked the dies badly. The 1964 Kennedy’s can be a lot of fun, proofs too. Cameos, near cameos, accented hair. Being able to see really nice ones through the pliofilm in the original packaging is an art form worthy of learning. The biggest con job, however, is “never unsealed” 1964 proof sets. THEY NEVER WERE SEALED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! If one finds one sealed, it was sealed to create a false impression of being unexamined. It’s a total con job, and anyone selling “never unsealed” enveloped proof sets IS A CON MAN. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:23 PM, Peaceman1 said:

Thank you all on responses.  wasn't really trying to say was SMS.  Just if the die cracks looked very same in same locations.  

I agree with all said on these.  I guess in my mind, if there are oodles more of other denominations graded as singles not from sets not linked to those dozen or so sets from the Adams estate.  Why so difficult to have a kennedy from the wild graded?  It baffles me.  Like, you can find a different denomination, grades right on thru but kennedy... 

I would think if was going to be confiscated on these, that would have happened already by now.  The door was opened I guess it could be said. 

I have a nice looking coin I'm content with.  

Going back to my Morgan & Peace Dollars...   More Fun!  

 

 

 

Your markers on your coin are nothing like the so-called SMS ones, such as they are. Totally different dies. Sorry. 
 

What the SMS MIGHT BE is very early strikes made from very early dies made from completely fresh working hubs. If you were Ms. Adams, isn’t that what you’ve want to squirrel away for yourself?

To me, the truly amazing thing is that the 1964 halves in Jackie O’s estate sale were utterly ordinary and unremarkable other than the provenance. Seems that Mint management “outrank” the widow. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by VKurtB

[l.cutler]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:23 PM, Peaceman1 said:

Thank you all on responses.  wasn't really trying to say was SMS.  Just if the die cracks looked very same in same locations.  

I agree with all said on these.  I guess in my mind, if there are oodles more of other denominations graded as singles not from sets not linked to those dozen or so sets from the Adams estate.  Why so difficult to have a kennedy from the wild graded?  It baffles me.  Like, you can find a different denomination, grades right on thru but kennedy... 

I would think if was going to be confiscated on these, that would have happened already by now.  The door was opened I guess it could be said. 

I have a nice looking coin I'm content with.  

Going back to my Morgan & Peace Dollars...   More Fun!  

 

 

 

I think all denominations are the same, I don't know of any denomination not traced directly to Eva Adams that was attributed as sms.