Finding Die Information 0

[Joseph Franklin]

I'm looking for any information regarding Die Variations of the 1958-P DDO. I have 2 58's that have doubling in LIBERTY and IGWT, and the date. 1 of the coins took a hard hit breaking off part of the 8. What other die type of flaw or degradation would cause such raised and rounded doubling? I don't even have an example of a 1958 die deterioration to compare to to eliminate as being damaged and not a true DDO. 

All I know is what I read and am able to compare too. I would have preferred getting more information on this coin then get on here and get told by someone else that your research is faulty. If this coin came from a well know collector automatically it would be shown to be authentic even if it hasn't been graded. It's the nature of who we are. If I'm wrong on the Doubling please share with me an example that looks like this, that's damage or due to die failure. 

[Coinbuf]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:36 AM, Joseph Franklin said:

I'm looking for any information regarding Die Variations of the 1958-P DDO. I have 2 58's that have doubling in LIBERTY and IGWT, and the date. 1 of the coins took a hard hit breaking off part of the 8. What other die type of flaw or degradation would cause such raised and rounded doubling? I don't even have an example of a 1958 die deterioration to compare to to eliminate as being damaged and not a true DDO. 

All I know is what I read and am able to compare too. I would have preferred getting more information on this coin then get on here and get told by someone else that your research is faulty. If this coin came from a well know collector automatically it would be shown to be authentic even if it hasn't been graded. It's the nature of who we are. If I'm wrong on the Doubling please share with me an example that looks like this, that's damage or due to die failure. 

Ok so first you have posted in the coin marketplace, this section is members to sell coins not ask questions about coins, so I have asked the mods to move your thread to a more appropriate section of the forum.   Second the coins you have shown have no doubling just damage from contact with other coins or objects, the second 1958 has a die chip that has filled in the bottom loop of the 8; this was very common and is nothing of any significance.   If you find it interesting and wish to keep the coin that is perfectly fine, but it has no doubling or value over the face value.   I have no desire to look for another example of a 1958 just because you need proof, however I do have on my desktop an example of a 1955 with a die chip that is filling in part of the first 5 of the date.

If you need help to understand what a die chip is you can google the term and find lots of reference material on the web.   Here is one article from error-ref.com on die chips.  Die chips

 

[Woods020]

Did you use the resources I posted on one of your earlier threads regarding doubling? Error-ref did a great job in my opinion of giving detailed descriptions accompanied by picture examples. I also included the link to view what a true doubled die looked like. It’s not that there aren’t resources to compare to….

[Oldhoopster]

Not sure where you're getting your info, but pics and descriptions of the 58DDO are easily accessable on Wexlers doubled die site, Variety Vista, Lincoln Cent Resource, PCGS CoinFacts, and Heritage Auction archives to name a few.  You can search these sites for pics.  It will be good practice and you'll become familiar some some very useful sites that will help you learn.  These are basic research sites that most variety collectors/seekers should have bookmarked.  Find and study them before you decide to be critical of the help this board provides.

You are sadly mistaken if you believe "If this coin came from a well know collector automatically it would be shown to be authentic...".  It has to have the characteristics of the variety.  Do you think people on here just guess on ID or authenticity?  

If/when you compare your coin to pics of an authenticated example, you'll easily see yours aren't even close

On 3/21/2022 at 1:36 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

. 

All I know is what I read and am able to compare too. I would have preferred getting more information on this coin then get on here and get told by someone else that your research is faulty. If this coin came from a well know collector automatically it would be shown to be authentic even if it hasn't been graded. It's the nature of who we are. If I'm wrong on the Doubling please share with me an example that looks like this, that's damage or due to die failure. 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[Woods020]

I admit I am blind half the time, but I just don’t see what you see. Are you saying “rounded doubling” to mean extra thickness in the letters? That can sometimes be indicative of a doubled die, but I don’t think it’s the case here. 
 

What I see is a circulated coin. During circulation metal gets displaced, and raised devices start to flatten. The date and motto tend to get widened a little as circulation wears them down and metal is displaced. 
 

Is that what you are seeing? I apologize if not. I’d like to help you but I don’t know exactly where the disconnect is yet. And again I could be missing something. 

[Joseph Franklin]

I'll try and stay context with the terms and definitions I broadly have stated. I'm sitting with the utmost humility, and only know what I'm learning as I go.

As it matches other DDO'S with type 4 & 5 spreads to them. So, this coin matches those types of variations, and I compare what this coin does have that isn't on any of the known books and websites I've used in attributing this coin as a DDO. I know this isn't type 1 FS-101, that's quite clear. But what it does do is match up to other types of spreading seen throughout the wheat pennies life. And just like the one found in the 1960's had to be verified from the mint. So too, this coin is going through the very same process of investigation. It doesn't have any of the hallmarks of a worthless strike. So, when all this evidence of reference material like a 1958-D DDO on hand to compare it to and that 58-D matches what is listed over numerous volumes of texts. Here's what I'm talking about. I have a 1958-D DDO that I'll be using here to demonstrate my point. I have every right to argue my case and submitting evidence in support of; why I would even be so silly to say I have a 1958-P DDO Penny. 

http://varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1958DDDO002.htm

Here's one from 1959-P. As you can see that the 9 on the end has the same build up and curving as the "9" in my 1958-P.

http://www.varietyvista.com/01b LC Doubled Dies Vol 2/1959PDDO001.htm

Here's my own 1958-D..... They are types 1 and types 2. 

I do apologise for creating this is the wrong space. I'll make sure to double check before hitting submit.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Joseph Franklin
The Doubling on this 1958-D DDO is IDENTICAL to my 1958-P

[Coinbuf]

I'm sorry but you cannot use coins minted at different mints and different years as a way to prove you have something, it does not work that way.   Also I see zero resemblance from your 1958 to the 1958-D you have linked at Variety Vista, not identical in any way.   You are free to disagree and also free to send in your coin to have it authenticated, but you will be wasting your money, you do not have a DDO on your 1958 P cent.

 

Edited to add: in case you are not aware as there is only the one DDO for 1958 you would have to have your coin verified as a discovery coin before it could be sent in to a TPG like NGC for grading and authentication.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Coinbuf

[Hoghead515]

Im not seeing it. Looks like a regular cent. It dosent look like the ddo from variety vista to me. 

[VKurtB]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:02 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

I'll try and stay context with the terms and definitions I broadly have stated. I'm sitting with the utmost humility, and only know what I'm learning as I go.

As it matches other DDO'S with type 4 & 5 spreads to them. So, this coin matches those types of variations, and I compare what this coin does have that isn't on any of the known books and websites I've used in attributing this coin as a DDO. I know this isn't type 1 FS-101, that's quite clear. But what it does do is match up to other types of spreading seen throughout the wheat pennies life. And just like the one found in the 1960's had to be verified from the mint. So too, this coin is going through the very same process of investigation. It doesn't have any of the hallmarks of a worthless strike. So, when all this evidence of reference material like a 1958-D DDO on hand to compare it to and that 58-D matches what is listed over numerous volumes of texts. Here's what I'm talking about. I have a 1958-D DDO that I'll be using here to demonstrate my point. I have every right to argue my case and submitting evidence in support of; why I would even be so silly to say I have a 1958-P DDO Penny. 

http://varietyvista.com/01a LC Doubled Dies Vol 1/1958DDDO002.htm

Here's one from 1959-P. As you can see that the 9 on the end has the same build up and curving as the "9" in my 1958-P.

http://www.varietyvista.com/01b LC Doubled Dies Vol 2/1959PDDO001.htm

Here's my own 1958-D..... They are types 1 and types 2. 

I do apologise for creating this is the wrong space. I'll make sure to double check before hitting submit.

https://giphy.com/gifs/2fs2I4ujlBf20?utm_source=iframe&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=Embeds&utm_term=
 

[Woods020]

Joseph I have to agree with the others I’m just not seeing anything out of the ordinary with any of your coins. 
 

When comparing your coin to others years/mints I assume you are saying yours has the same characteristics, therefore yours should also be a doubled die. First I fundamentally haven’t seen anything resembling a doubled die on your coins, but I will also admit pictures are tough to verify from. Assuming I and others are incorrect you would have to get the variety attributed, as Coinbuf said, by Coneca or a similar attribution. The TPGs won’t just create a new variety. So if you are dead set on your coins being something special I suggest you post them on the Coneca chat board. I am very confident the answers will be the same, but atleast you would have a second opinion from collectors and professionals that live for varieties. 

[Woods020]

Here is the link to Coneca’s website in case you want it. 
 

https://conecaonline.org
 

Also let’s use the wheat stalks on the reverse of the coins you have. Do you notice how the more worn they become the wider and flatter they become? Wouldn’t that explain what you are seeing on the obverse lettering as well?

 

 

[RWB]

Mr. Franklin: Relief on a coin - portrait, lettering, etc. - is always slightly "V" shaped when viewed on edge. This allows the coin to release from the dies. It also means that as the design wears during circulation, wider parts of letters and other relief become visible as the top layers of metal are worn off.

The cent posted is entirely normal, although it might possibly be some barely-visible variety of no added value.

Edited March 22, 2022 by RWB