1886 50c -- Second Opinion? 1 1

[Twin Lakes Coins]

Hello everyone!

Long time coin collector, newbie wholesale dealer, and first-time poster, so please show me some grace if this doesn't fit the forum (and feel free to point me to the right place!)...

Sent in what I considered to be an absolutely gorgeous 1886 50c piece to PCGS in recent months for authentication and grading see link and attached photo...

PCGS Certificate Verification Coin Details for Cert #44263953

...and it came back as Genuine, UNC, Cleaned.


I've had 2 dealers look at it, and the only problem one of them mentioned was that it could be artificial toning -- as the coin is darker than what the TrueView imaging would otherwise portray (and he said the dark blues typically are symptomatic of artificial toning).

But, that's not what the slab came back as.

I keep on staring at it through a 30x loupe and can't find the spot/sots they are referring to, nor can I detect obvious hairlines using the naked eye or a 5x loupe. I'm just trying to learn here, so I'm not opposed to re-submitting to NGC to get a second opinion -- just wanted to see what the chances were in the opinion coming back the exact same (I'm also not a fan of cracking-out, because at least it is in a "Genuine UNC" holder already)


Questions:

1. Would NGC Restoration benefit this coin? (I'm too scared to touch a coin this pretty on my own with a drop of anything, and am reticent to clean coins in general.)
2. In your opinion, would NGC's opinion be the same on the details grade?
   1. Or, if they see the same issue, would they give it a net number grade?
3. Do coins like this bring good prices at auction? I hear that beautiful toning can make prices go through the roof, but am concerned with the "Cleaned" being stamped on the label

I'm a new member at NGC and just trying to decide at what point do I just market the coin as-is... any/all opinions are appreciated... thanks!

Aaron Witten
Leitchfield, KY

[Alex in PA.]

Darn shame.  It appears nice but that Toning just doesn't appear right to me.  Some of our counterparts here will be able to give you a better read out.  Sorry about the 'Details' grade.

Added:  I'm a firm believer in Second Opinions.  Cracked out two CC Trade Dollars NGC said were cleaned and sent them raw to PCGS.  Both came back "Cleaned' but at least I knew for certain.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Alex in PA.

[RWB]

If the coin was cleaned and then artificially tarnished, restoration will not change anything. If you look closely, you'll see that all of the small dings and scrapes have darker color than adjacent areas. This is one of several indicators of handy-work by parties other than Mother Nature. Also, the photos don't show any luster under the Maaco paint job.

It is not possible for anyone viewing the PCGS photos to say anything definitive. Examination in-hand but through the plastic is not the best, either. You could crack it out and send it to PCGS again, or send it to  NGC, or leave it as-is.

[Just Bob]

Take a look at Seated halves on Heritage Auction's website, and you will see that most coins with that much color have some variation of a toning pattern that consists of blue around the periphery, fading to rose in the center. It isn't impossible to find one with a toning pattern similar to yours, but it does not seem too common. It might just mean that yours has progressed further. However, PCGS may feel that the coin was stripped and re-toned. Or, they may have seen something that does not show in the pictures.

To answer your questions:

1) I would not send it to NCS, if it were my coin. There is no contamination to be removed, and the toning has not reached the terminal state, in my opinion. I would be afraid that removing the toning would lower the value at best, and possibly uncover some hairlines or other problem at worst.

2) If NGC sees a problem, they will also give it a "Details" grade.

3) In its current holder, it is probably a $900 coin, give or take. With a clear grade, it could jump to $1500 or better.  

 

I just saw RWB's answer. He makes a good point about the lack of luster in the photos. If it looks dull in hand, you may be better off not spending more money on it.

 

Edit: Oops, sorry - forgot my manners. Welcome to the forum. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Just Bob

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to NGC and the forum, I will just second much of what has been said above.   The first thing that struck me when looking at the photo is the flat dull look, like the coin has been dipped to death or the luster was stripped.   Also, the toning does not look natural or have a natural progression or pattern to it.    Having said that I have seen coins from the seated series that have colors and patterns that are similar to your coin.   Photos only get you so far and this coin would need to be rotated under a strong single light source to see if there is any true luster movement under the tone.   In answer to your questions I also do not think that restoration is going to have any effect, and I'm not at all convinced that NCS would do any form of restoration biased on what I see in the photos.  And given the long wait time, costs, and high likelihood that NGC would also place the coin into a details holder I do not think that sending to NGC/NCS is a very good option.   But I have to admit that if this were my coin I would be tempted to go for that second opinion at NGC.

The really sad thing is that if this is sold into the market I think there is a strong possibility that it will surface as a raw coin with a big asking price on a venue like ebay or etsy with no mention of any issues.

 

Totally unrelated to your post I am curious if you have ever consigned coins to Gerry Fortin, I review his inventory often and have seen a number of coins that are noted as from a collection with a very similar name as your screen name.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Coinbuf

[VKurtB]

There is a recent trend out there that those P*** fellows are getting really persnickety about toning and cleaning. The sad fact is that coin doctors are getting REALLY good at covering cleaning with artificial toning. Part of this is “our” (the hobby’s) own fault. The fetish many have for toned anything is coming back to bite us. A grading company is putting its reputation on the line. If they have doubts, they’re going to Details grade every time.