Question on machine doubling 0

[Keith Dee]

Can machine doubling happen on the same devices on multiple coins. I know there’s multiple processes in making a working die. So where in the process is it classified as machine doubling? Pretty much any where after the hub makes the master die? Not even sure if I got that right. Eventually I’ll sit down and read this book on double dies haha.
I’ve seen multiple coins with the same doubling and they say they are machine doubling. When I picture parts moving around really fast stamping out coins I picture doubling all over the place and not just cause doubling on those specific devices on multiple coins.A true double die is created in the process of the hub making the master die right? So anything after that can be considered machine doubling or just the end process of striking the planchette which is also referred as strike doubling? I’m so confused 😂

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Keith Dee

[Stephaniec418]

I feel ya. I thought coin collecting was an easy kinda hobby haha😅😅

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:03 AM, Keith Dee said:

Can machine doubling happen on the same devices on multiple coins.

Yes. It is a machinery defect, setting or wear (item) in the equipment which can and will produce identically defective widgets or results. This is true in most any type of machinery or production setting. 

No need to read a book, how about just this chapter. It's a quick read. 

https://doubleddie.com/144822.html

Edited March 16, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike
Grammar

[RWB]

"Unlike genuine doubled dies for which the doubling is on the die itself (hence the term “doubled die”), mechanical doubling is the result of loose parts in the coining press.  These loose parts allow the dies to shift and/or bounce slightly at the moment of impact when the coin is being struck.  This slight shifting and bouncing of the dies is what causes the flat, shelf-like appearance of mechanical doubling."

The highlighted part is not quite right. Mechanical doubling occurs when the planchet is still moving at the time of striking. That is, the dies do not move or bounce, it is the planchet that is moving. The dies might strike incorrectly due to poor maintenance, normal wear, excess lubricant, poor set-up and many other defects. At times, it almost seem that "perfect" coin are the exception. This commonly affects hundreds of coins before it is corrected by repair or maintenance. In extreme situations the coins are mangled and must be condemned. (See From Mint to Mint for illustrations, etc.)

Edited March 17, 2022 by RWB

[Keith Dee]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:14 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Yes. It is a machinery defect, setting or wear (item) in the equipment which can and will produce identically defective widgets or results. This is true in most any type of machinery or production setting. 

No need to read a book, how about just this chapter. It's a quick read. 

https://doubleddie.com/144822.html

The book is the Cherry Pickers guide to rare die varieties. I believe this is the same author but I’m not sure about that. It explains a lot more about doubling then just mechanical doubling. I only read a few pages about how dies are made. I skimmed through the rest and seen there’s like 8 or 9 classes of doubling. It talks about other forms of doubling that are actual doubled dies at the end. I’ll start reading that next as soon as I have more free time to sit and read. I love reading but I have to have a few hours of nothing else on my mind lol. I’ve come across a lot of deterioration doubling which I know is when the devices are doubled on both sides. I’ve also come across some doubling only on one side and been told it’s mechanical. Its also hard for me to tell if the serifs are split in some which I guess is one of my problems and the flat top look. Besides the 1955 double die Lincoln and a few others that show very obvious doubling Its not that easy I guess lol. I’ve seen other coins being classified as doubled dies that look like ones I’m being told is mechanical. Here’s a few pics and if someone can tell me if the serif in the 1 and lower 2 is split🤷🏼‍♂️ I guess it doesn’t really matter on this one because I’ve already been told mechanical. But I also have a few pennies I can’t tell if anyone can help. The one in the next pic is a 1964 cent. Doubling on one cent, mechanical?

[Fenntucky Mike]

No split serifs on those, definite MD. Using a split serif as an initial indicator can be confusing for new collectors, for example the tail of the "2" and top of the "1" on the nickel certainly look split (right?) but they are not. I always look for added thickness to the details first, thickness that is at the same height (or very close to it) as the rest of the detail. Once I see that I might start thinking about split serifs. 

I don't envy you DD searchers, I wouldn't last 10 min.  

[Keith Dee]

On 3/17/2022 at 6:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

No split serifs on those, definite MD. Using a split serif as an initial indicator can be confusing for new collectors, for example the tail of the "2" and top of the "1" on the nickel certainly look split (right?) but they are not. I always look for added thickness to the details first, thickness that is at the same height (or very close to it) as the rest of the detail. Once I see that I might start thinking about split serifs. 

I don't envy you DD searchers, I wouldn't last 10 min. 

[Keith Dee]

Sorry about that  I hit quote by mistake and couldn’t get rid of it. Plus it wouldn’t let me type anything for some reason. Anyway I checked out eBay for error coins and came across someone selling a 2017 D Jefferson nickel with the same doubling as mine but listed as die deterioration doubling. I believe it was at $5. Then I looked in the sold section of eBay and came across this 2018 D with the same doubling on the same devices except I believe it also has doubling on Monticello in a couple letters but I can’t tell from their phones. But none the less machine doubling, die deterioration doubling or any kind of doubling some collectors seem to like lol. Unless this person placed a bid on their own coin to leave positive feedback.

[RWB]

Do the above also include real Oscar Mayer Bologna or just the lies they mention?

[Woods020]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:58 PM, Keith Dee said:

Sorry about that  I hit quote by mistake and couldn’t get rid of it. Plus it wouldn’t let me type anything for some reason. Anyway I checked out eBay for error coins and came across someone selling a 2017 D Jefferson nickel with the same doubling as mine but listed as die deterioration doubling. I believe it was at $5. Then I looked in the sold section of eBay and came across this 2018 D with the same doubling on the same devices except I believe it also has doubling on Monticello in a couple letters but I can’t tell from their phones. But none the less machine doubling, die deterioration doubling or any kind of doubling some collectors seem to like lol. Unless this person placed a bid on their own coin to leave positive feedback.

Ever heard the phrase a fool and his money are soon parted? This is a truly pathetic list of coins and garbage for sale. It actually makes me sad that this is allowed. 
 

Unfortunately there is a craze, bordering on a sickness, to find these “rare errors” on pocket change and get rich. Machine doubling and die deterioration are probably as common, if not more common, on a coin than one without these days. Please don’t take evidence that someone actually bought some of this proves that it is unique or valuable. 
 

But hey if machine doubling is your thing I’ll be your coin supplier. Just let me know what denomination, years and how many hundreds you want. I got you. I’ll only charge 50x face value for each. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Woods020

[VKurtB]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:02 PM, Woods020 said:

Ever heard the phrase a fool and his money are soon parted? This is a truly pathetic list of coins and garbage for sale. It actually makes me sad that this is allowed. 
 

Unfortunately there is a craze, bordering on a sickness, to find these “rare errors” on pocket change and get rich. Machine doubling and die deterioration are probably as common, if not more common, on a coin than one without these days. Please don’t take evidence that someone actually bought some of this proves that it is unique or valuable. 
 

But hey if machine doubling is your thing I’ll be your coin supplier. Just let me know what denomination, years and how many hundreds you want. I got you. I’ll only charge 50x face value for each. 

I object to the description “bordering on”. It is a sickness. The hobby at large decided many decades ago that machine and die deterioration doubling is worthless. They are bad coins. The new generation wants to redefine what matters. Typical. They even claim the right to redefine common nouns with no limit. They’re stupid, that’s all. 

[Hoghead515]

 MD is very common. When Im roll hunting quarters,  I can look at 10 to 15 and 3 or 4 of them will have MD. Some quite dramatic. Looks neat sometimes but still worthless machine doubling. I finally ened up learning what a true ddo is. Out of the thousands of coins I looked through I only found 2 true ddo's. Found a barrel full of MD's. They are just to common to be of interest.