1901 Indian head 0

[Keith Dee]

I got this coin not in hand yet so I can further inspect it but the seller says it seems the 1 in her headdress and what appears to be an earring was minted on the coin and not man made. Has anyone seen anything like this? My first thought about the circle on the ear was I believe the 2019 quarter with the nob on Washingtons ear which I believe they determined to be from the making of the die. I’m just not sure dies where made the same back then and if that circle is centered enough to be that theory.

[Woods020]

If someone is telling you these things don’t buy it! Have some common sense

 Here is the real question. Can you explain how during the minting process a one and an ear ring can be placed on the coin? If you can not the rest doesn’t matter. And to answer my own question it isn’t possible. It’s damage mixed with pareidolia  

Do not ever believe extraordinary claims, particularly from someone selling a coin, without extraordinary evidence. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Woods020

[Greenstang]

Agree with Woods020

That story the seller is telling you both is fictitious  and impossible to happen.

[Coinbuf]

A great story to sell a damaged coin, perhaps at some premium price.

[Keith Dee]

The seller wasn’t pushing the coin to be something it’s not. He sold it at a far price for what’s on it. I still purchased regardless of the markings because it was interesting to me and wanted to look at it first hand. It’s not a key date so nothing was lost in this deal either way. As for an ear ring I’m not even sure that’s what that was intended to be and I can’t tell if the number 1 is raised or punched in the coin. I thought maybe there was a possibility of one design getting stamped over another or something. Basically the purchase was for me to get a better look at it and ad it to my set I’m starting since I’ve already completed my wheat set with the exception of one. Thanks for the input…

[Keith Dee]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:02 PM, Woods020 said:

If someone is telling you these things don’t buy it! Have some common sense

 Here is the real question. Can you explain how during the minting process a one and an ear ring can be placed on the coin? If you can not the rest doesn’t matter. And to answer my own question it isn’t possible. It’s damage mixed with pareidolia  

Do not ever believe extraordinary claims, particularly from someone selling a coin, without extraordinary evidence. 

I thought I did explain in the minting process about the earring on Washingtons ear. Its a little smaller then that circle. But it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down. As for the 1 no clue. My thought if it’s a raised 1 and there didn’t appear to be any damage to the reverse then it must of been struck on to the coin. Look I’m still a newbie here and that’s why I ask these questions. I’ve seen a lot of strange errors and I don’t work or never had for the US mint or any other mint. So me asking myself questions is pointless on this one. So just because I can’t explain it to myself the rest doesn’t matter? I don’t get that view but ok lol. Anyway thanks for the input.

[Keith Dee]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:02 PM, Woods020 said:

If someone is telling you these things don’t buy it! Have some common sense

 Here is the real question. Can you explain how during the minting process a one and an ear ring can be placed on the coin? If you can not the rest doesn’t matter. And to answer my own question it isn’t possible. It’s damage mixed with pareidolia  

Do not ever believe extraordinary claims, particularly from someone selling a coin, without extraordinary evidence. 

I guess let me put it this way and just going off one coin because it’s a Indian head with an explained but kind of unexplained explanation because it’s just speculation. The 1875 dot penny with a dot on the reverse. If I had that penny back then and someone said what you said about trying to explain how during the minting process that happened and why and if not the rest didn’t matter I probably would of spent that penny felling defeated in explaining this😂Thanks. But anyway I can’t explain it that’s why I asked if anyones seen a error like this. Especially the circle as I know it’s happened but did they make their dies the same way they do now. 

[RWB]

“I thought I did explain in the minting process about the earring on Washingtons ear. Its a little smaller then that circle. But it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down. As for the 1 no clue. My thought if it’s a raised 1 and there didn’t appear to be any damage to the reverse then it must of been struck on to the coin. Look I’m still a newbie here and that’s why I ask these questions. I’ve seen a lot of strange errors and I don’t work or never had for the US mint or any other mint. So me asking myself questions is pointless on this one. So just because I can’t explain it to myself the rest doesn’t matter?”

Keith Dee – OK. Let’s back up a little and see if we can straighten out what happed with your 1901 cent.

First, lets start with your comment about the minting process: “…it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down.”

Since you are new to coin collecting no one here expects you to understand the minting process; and it appears you’ve assumed a lot of things that are simply incorrect. Here’s how it goes – a coin is struck from hard steel dies, one for the obverse (front) and one for the reverse (back). These “working dies” are made by the Engraving Department and are exact copies of master dies that contains all the lettering, portrait, wreath, date, etc. No changes are made to the working dies – there is no “grinding down” or addition of “ear rings” or anything else. Mistakes can occur when a die is made, but most of these are caught during inspection and are very small in scale.

Briefly – no parts of the design are altered intentionally. The most common die defects are doubling of the design due to shifting of the die as it’s being made, and partial transfer of design from obverse to reverse die (and vice versa) due to dies hitting each other without a coin planchet between them. (Usually called "clashing.") Steel dies can also crack and these cracks are visible as raised irregular lines usually between the tops of letters. (Often seen on Morgan-type silver dollars.)

Second, coining errors. As coins are struck in the press, mechanical problems can occur and these create coins with certain types of errors. These include striking a planchet more than once because the ejector mechanism failed, striking a coin off-center, and many other mistakes.

You’re a “newbie” and trying to figure out how certain things you see on a coin could have happened. But what you want to avoid, is assuming you understand enough of the coining process to make a valid assumption. In the case of your 1901 cent, none of the marks you see were possible when the coin was struck, or by any process at the Philadelphia Mint. Logically, they must have occurred after the coin left the Mint, and that is the reason for members’ comments about damage.

For your next coin, I suggest you post good photos and describe what you see. Don’t try to explain how it might have happened – let the members help you understand possibilities. That will prepare you to examine your coins with more and better knowledge.

Hope this helps a little. Don’t hesitate to ask questions!

Edited March 6, 2022 by RWB

[Just Bob]

On 3/6/2022 at 10:50 AM, Keith Dee said:

 Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down.

Your responses - the above statement in particular - lead me to believe that a study into how dies are made would benefit you greatly. And that was what Woods was saying, also. He did not mean that if you did not know the reason something happened that you should ignore it. He meant that if, after learning how the process actually worked, you determined that it could not have happened during the minting process, it could be (most of the time) dismissed as post-minting damage.

 

Mr Burdette responded as I was typing this post, and, as usual, he explained things well. Let me just add a link to a long but detailed article that I think will be of help to you. I suggest spending some time reading this and other articles on this subject.

Click Me 

 

Edited to add: Also, if you could post a link to the Washington quarter with the circle that resembles an earring, I would like to take a look at it.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Just Bob

[Keith Dee]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:33 PM, RWB said:

“I thought I did explain in the minting process about the earring on Washingtons ear. Its a little smaller then that circle. But it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down. As for the 1 no clue. My thought if it’s a raised 1 and there didn’t appear to be any damage to the reverse then it must of been struck on to the coin. Look I’m still a newbie here and that’s why I ask these questions. I’ve seen a lot of strange errors and I don’t work or never had for the US mint or any other mint. So me asking myself questions is pointless on this one. So just because I can’t explain it to myself the rest doesn’t matter?”

Keith Dee – OK. Let’s back up a little and see if we can straighten out what happed with your 1901 cent.

First, lets start with your comment about the minting process: “…it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down.”

Since you are new to coin collecting no one here expects you to understand the minting process; and it appears you’ve assumed a lot of things that are simply incorrect. Here’s how it goes – a coin is struck from hard steel dies, one for the obverse (front) and one for the reverse (back). These “working dies” are made by the Engraving Department and are exact copies of master dies that contains all the lettering, portrait, wreath, date, etc. No changes are made to the working dies – there is no “grinding down” or addition of “ear rings” or anything else. Mistakes can occur when a die is made, but most of these are caught during inspection and are very small in scale.

Briefly – no parts of the design are altered intentionally. The most common die defects are doubling of the design due to shifting of the die as it’s being made, and partial transfer of design from obverse to reverse die (and vice versa) due to dies hitting each other without a coin planchet between them. (Usually called "clashing.") Steel dies can also crack and these cracks are visible as raised irregular lines usually between the tops of letters. (Often seen on Morgan-type silver dollars.)

Second, coining errors. As coins are struck in the press, mechanical problems can occur and these create coins with certain types of errors. These include striking a planchet more than once because the ejector mechanism failed, striking a coin off-center, and many other mistakes.

You’re a “newbie” and trying to figure out how certain things you see on a coin could have happened. But what you want to avoid, is assuming you understand enough of the coining process to make a valid assumption. In the case of your 1901 cent, none of the marks you see were possible when the coin was struck, or by any process at the Philadelphia Mint. Logically, they must have occurred after the coin left the Mint, and that is the reason for members’ comments about damage.

For your next coin, I suggest you post good photos and describe what you see. Don’t try to explain how it might have happened – let the members help you understand possibilities. That will prepare you to examine your coins with more and better knowledge.

Hope this helps a little. Don’t hesitate to ask questions!

Ok then what’s the explanation on the 2019 quarter with Washingtons earring? I was just repeating what was told to me by by two different people and that’s the only explanation I could give for the circle around her ear. If that’s not possible then what is the explanation for Washingtons earring? I throw what I’ve been told out there not to come off as a know it all but to be corrected and get the right information. I realize that there’s a lot of errors and varieties out there so much so they made a book for them. So I’m don’t come here expecting everyone to know what they’re talking about either. 

[Woods020]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:33 AM, RWB said:

“I thought I did explain in the minting process about the earring on Washingtons ear. Its a little smaller then that circle. But it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down. As for the 1 no clue. My thought if it’s a raised 1 and there didn’t appear to be any damage to the reverse then it must of been struck on to the coin. Look I’m still a newbie here and that’s why I ask these questions. I’ve seen a lot of strange errors and I don’t work or never had for the US mint or any other mint. So me asking myself questions is pointless on this one. So just because I can’t explain it to myself the rest doesn’t matter?”

Keith Dee – OK. Let’s back up a little and see if we can straighten out what happed with your 1901 cent.

First, lets start with your comment about the minting process: “…it was perfectly placed on his ear it was almost like it was done on purpose. Apparently it was left behind from making the die they didn’t grind it down.”

Since you are new to coin collecting no one here expects you to understand the minting process; and it appears you’ve assumed a lot of things that are simply incorrect. Here’s how it goes – a coin is struck from hard steel dies, one for the obverse (front) and one for the reverse (back). These “working dies” are made by the Engraving Department and are exact copies of master dies that contains all the lettering, portrait, wreath, date, etc. No changes are made to the working dies – there is no “grinding down” or addition of “ear rings” or anything else. Mistakes can occur when a die is made, but most of these are caught during inspection and are very small in scale.

Briefly – no parts of the design are altered intentionally. The most common die defects are doubling of the design due to shifting of the die as it’s being made, and partial transfer of design from obverse to reverse die (and vice versa) due to dies hitting each other without a coin planchet between them. (Usually called "clashing.") Steel dies can also crack and these cracks are visible as raised irregular lines usually between the tops of letters. (Often seen on Morgan-type silver dollars.)

Second, coining errors. As coins are struck in the press, mechanical problems can occur and these create coins with certain types of errors. These include striking a planchet more than once because the ejector mechanism failed, striking a coin off-center, and many other mistakes.

You’re a “newbie” and trying to figure out how certain things you see on a coin could have happened. But what you want to avoid, is assuming you understand enough of the coining process to make a valid assumption. In the case of your 1901 cent, none of the marks you see were possible when the coin was struck, or by any process at the Philadelphia Mint. Logically, they must have occurred after the coin left the Mint, and that is the reason for members’ comments about damage.

For your next coin, I suggest you post good photos and describe what you see. Don’t try to explain how it might have happened – let the members help you understand possibilities. That will prepare you to examine your coins with more and better knowledge.

Hope this helps a little. Don’t hesitate to ask questions!

Keith this took a lot of time to type and is great information from a trusted numismatist. Read this a couple of times. This is the type of information from the type of source you want to get it from. Avoid hype from YouTube, Facebook error groups, and crazy sights like marked money. I was unaware of marked money but recently got in a heated debate with someone over its validity. Learn the right info from the right sources and you will be far ahead of the collecting game. Knowledge is scarily becoming scarce in this hobby. Everyone wants to get rich from an “error” that’s nothing but damage or minor manufacturing defects. 

[Woods020]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:56 AM, Keith Dee said:

Ok then what’s the explanation on the 2019 quarter with Washingtons earring? I was just repeating what was told to me by by two different people and that’s the only explanation I could give for the circle around her ear. If that’s not possible then what is the explanation for Washingtons earring? I throw what I’ve been told out there not to come off as a know it all but to be corrected and get the right information. I realize that there’s a lot of errors and varieties out there so much so they made a book for them. So I’m don’t come here expecting everyone to know what they’re talking about either. 

It was a die chip. A small chunk of the die chipped off from use, which allowed metal to be raised in that area. This is what I read from some trusted sources I have not seen one in hand, but i assure you there is nothing to the story of this was added to the die. This is exactly the type of thing that I am so scared is ruining this hobby. People don’t learn the process, then they believe anything they see is an error. I’ve recently joined a bunch of Facebook coin groups to network and it truly makes me sad to see. 
 

Here is the best advice I can give you for now. This is just a start, but a safer one. If you can’t find the EXACT error/variety listed as a known in NGC variety plus, the fivaz Stanton cherry picker books, or variety vista just assume it isn’t a variety. If you can’t find an error description on error-ref that explains how an errror could occur assume it isn’t an error. Yes very rarely new discoveries are made, but on older series such as Indian cents it’s very very unlikely something new would be found. The other so called errors aren’t real or are such a small part of the manufacturing process it’s not worth mentioning. 
 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Woods020

[RWB]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:56 PM, Keith Dee said:

Ok then what’s the explanation on the 2019 quarter with Washingtons earring? I was just repeating what was told to me by by two different people and that’s the only explanation I could give for the circle around her ear. If that’s not possible then what is the explanation for Washingtons earring? I throw what I’ve been told out there not to come off as a know it all but to be corrected and get the right information. I realize that there’s a lot of errors and varieties out there so much so they made a book for them. So I’m don’t come here expecting everyone to know what they’re talking about either. 

Keith,

Looking at the quarter photo Woods020 posted, I agree it is from a damaged die. In this instance, a small part of the steel failed due to mechanical stress and fell out of the die. Usually, these "die chips" are irregular shapes. The shape results from crystal boundaries in the steel, and can follow a line (or circle) created in the metal by poor annealing cycles as the die is made. (Annealing cycles are heating and cooling necessary to make the steel soft enough for die cutting, but the hard for use.) The Washington quarter is unusual in shape and the nickname is certainly evident. Its interest to most collectors is limited because it is a defect and not actually a die variety. Certainly keep it for its unusual shape and the fun part of coin collecting.

Edited March 6, 2022 by RWB