64 dollar?
2 2

59 posts in this topic

On 2/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, Derek bentley said:

Why did PCGS offer a $10,000 reward for a coin they couldn't authenicate. 7yrs before the die was found at the Philadelphia mint vault?

Screenshot_20210526-113921.png

Screenshot_20210420-132800.png

Screenshot_20210227-094833_CoinFacts.jpg

20210227_095234.jpg

 Why do you assume they couldn’t authenticate the coin?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 3:48 PM, Derek bentley said:

Why did PCGS offer a $10,000 reward for a coin they couldn't authenicate. 7yrs before the die was found at the Philadelphia mint vault?

Screenshot_20210526-113921.png

Screenshot_20210420-132800.png

Screenshot_20210227-094833_CoinFacts.jpg

20210227_095234.jpg

A die was found. Coins have not. Nobody disputes coins were made, and most agree all had D mint marks on the reverse. The technique is an oldie but a goodie. Offer a nice sum to even SEE an ultra-rarity in an effort to “flush one out of hiding”. It’s not going to work, assuming the holders of any 1964 Peace dollars aren’t really stupid. They’d be seized under the Langbord precedent.

I have a 1964 “Morgan dollar”, in quotes because it is a fantasy date overstrike.  Thinking of which, it’s probably the date that needs to be in quotes. The planchet is a real 1921 Morgan.

I tremble in ill-concealed anticipation of a renowned author’s fairy tale about 1964 silver dollars. But we’re unlikely to see it unless some lawyer ponies up the right fee. 

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 8:08 PM, VKurtB said:

A die was found. Coins have not. Nobody disputes coins were made, and most agree all had D mint marks on the reverse. The technique is an oldie but a goodie. Offer a nice sum to even SEE an ultra-rarity in an effort to “flush one out of hiding”. It’s not going to work, assuming the holders of any 1964 Peace dollars aren’t really stupid. They’d be seized under the Langbord precedent.

I have a 1964 “Morgan dollar”, in quotes because it is a fantasy date overstrike.  Thinking of which, it’s probably the date that needs to be in quotes. The planchet is a real 1921 Morgan.

I tremble in ill-concealed anticipation of a renowned author’s fairy tale about 1964 silver dollars. But we’re unlikely to see it unless some lawyer ponies up the right fee. 

...absolutely on the money in both cases....no 1964 peace or morgan dollar will ever surface in this country n i can assure u neither of the other '33 saints will either, they mite come up for sale some day in a country that doesnt have any "extradition" arrangements with the US....n ur anticipation trembleation on ur overstrike is well grounded as well.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 8:05 PM, zadok said:

...absolutely on the money in both cases....no 1964 peace or morgan dollar will ever surface in this country n i can assure u neither of the other '33 saints will either, they mite come up for sale some day in a country that doesnt have any "extradition" arrangements with the US....n ur anticipation trembleation on ur overstrike is well grounded as well.....

The best knowledge of the lawyers assigned to represent the Mint (they periodically rotate) is that 4 1933 DE’s remain “in the wild”, and that two of them are overseas, unlikely to ever come back. One is believed to still be in the U.S., and they “have a bead on it”, and the 4th is the best hidden ever.

Hey, d’ya think maybe GoldFinger1969 has it? He sure seems to have a highly unusual and personal rooting interest in them. 
 

Oh, and every one of the four has Izzy Switt in its provenance. The Lone Stranger. 

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 9:13 PM, VKurtB said:

The best knowledge of the lawyers assigned to represent the Mint (they periodically rotate) is that 4 1933 DE’s remain “in the wild”, and that two of them are overseas, unlikely to ever come back. One is believed to still be in the U.S., and they “have a bead on it”, and the 4th is the best hidden ever.

Hey, d’ya think maybe GoldFinger1969 has it? He sure seems to have a highly unusual and personal rooting interest in them. 

..our US Mint's finest will never achieve a bead of sweat let alone a bead on any of these coins....n i can assure u they will never be anywhere accessible to the greedy clutches of our gov't again....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 8:17 PM, zadok said:

..our US Mint's finest will never achieve a bead of sweat let alone a bead on any of these coins....n i can assure u they will never be anywhere accessible to the greedy clutches of our gov't again....

One thing is now indisputable is that any transfer that happens in U.S. jurisdiction from here on is completely a crime. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 11:35 PM, VKurtB said:

One thing is now indisputable is that any transfer that happens in U.S. jurisdiction from here on is completely a crime. 

Until Congress or an EO says otherwise. 

Maybe we'll get a coin collector as House Speaker, Senate Majority Leader, or President in the future.  xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since it is impossibly to place a precise quantity of 1964-D dollars struck or destroyed, the situation cannot be resolved. However, it is clear than none were officially released for circulation or other purposes.

On 2/14/2022 at 9:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

One thing is now indisputable is that any transfer that happens in U.S. jurisdiction from here on is completely a crime. 

The comment by VKurtB is incorrect. The subject has never been adjudicated, so criminality is not "indisputable." But confiscation as theft of Government property and prosecution seem likely.

Also, it is not like the 1933 DE, since the DE were approved for normal production and the 1964-D dollars were not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2022 at 8:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Offer a nice sum to even SEE an ultra-rarity in an effort to “flush one out of hiding”. It’s not going to work, assuming the holders of any 1964 Peace dollars aren’t really stupid. They’d be seized under the Langbord precedent.

They haven't seized the Toven 1974 Aluminum cent.  They have said it's government property, but they have made no attempt to recover it.  Now if it were to be put up for public auction then I'm sure they would try to confiscate it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2022 at 10:24 PM, Conder101 said:

They haven't seized the Toven 1974 Aluminum cent.  They have said it's government property, but they have made no attempt to recover it.  Now if it were to be put up for public auction then I'm sure they would try to confiscate it.

That delay might also be used to claim government abandonment....an interesting situation. Of course, if "they" wait until everyone connected with the coins in 1974 is dead, then anything could be presumed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/16/2022 at 10:24 PM, Conder101 said:

They haven't seized the Toven 1974 Aluminum cent.  They have said it's government property, but they have made no attempt to recover it.  Now if it were to be put up for public auction then I'm sure they would try to confiscate it.

I thought somebody had one and he relinguqueshed it after being offered a nice 6-figure sum for it ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to clarify...it was Kurt, and not me, that made the quote below.  I think Roger cut-and-pasted and inadvertently attributed it to me even though later in his post he referenced Kurt.  Kurt's post regarding U.S. jurisdiction and criminality is above.

Just wanted that to be clear.  (thumbsu

Since it is impossibly to place a precise quantity of 1964-D dollars struck or destroyed, the situation cannot be resolved. However, it is clear than none were officially released for circulation or other purposes.

   On 2/14/2022 at 9:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

One thing is now indisputable is that any transfer that happens in U.S. jurisdiction from here on is completely a crime. 

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/17/2022 at 2:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I thought somebody had one and he relinguqueshed it after being offered a nice 6-figure sum for it ?

That was a 1974 D aluminum cent, a coin that never should have existed in the first place.  They do experiments like that aluminum cent in Philadelphia, and the 1974 plain aluminum cents were most likely part of the test run of something like 1.5 million pieces they did to make sure they would scale up to regular production.  There would never have been any good reason to have a few (or one) struck at Denver.  I would find it difficult to believe there was ever any official order to have that coin struck.  I think it was something the Denver Mint official did on his own.

And the six figure sum was what they expected it to bring at auction, the proceeds of which were to be donated to charity.  When it was publicly announced the government claimed if was their property and the auction company withdrew it and returned it tot he consignor.  The government kept claiming it was theirs and that it should be surrendered, but in that case they also never actually made any attempt to physically recover it.  The owner finally turned it over to them to make them go away and leave him alone.  I believe he had to get it to them as well, they didn't come to get it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 5:44 AM, Conder101 said:

That was a 1974 D aluminum cent, a coin that never should have existed in the first place.  They do experiments like that aluminum cent in Philadelphia, and the 1974 plain aluminum cents were most likely part of the test run of something like 1.5 million pieces they did to make sure they would scale up to regular production.  There would never have been any good reason to have a few (or one) struck at Denver.  I would find it difficult to believe there was ever any official order to have that coin struck.  I think it was something the Denver Mint official did on his own.

And the six figure sum was what they expected it to bring at auction, the proceeds of which were to be donated to charity.  When it was publicly announced the government claimed if was their property and the auction company withdrew it and returned it tot he consignor.  The government kept claiming it was theirs and that it should be surrendered, but in that case they also never actually made any attempt to physically recover it.  The owner finally turned it over to them to make them go away and leave him alone.  I believe he had to get it to them as well, they didn't come to get it.

At ALL times that I personally have referred to ANY 1974-D cent being illegal, I have been referring to the unique and utterly unauthorized D example. It ALSO, like 1933 DE’s, 1913 Libnicks, and other hyper-rarities, has appeared at ANA conventions. 

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2022 at 10:54 AM, RWB said:

Since it is impossibly to place a precise quantity of 1964-D dollars struck or destroyed, the situation cannot be resolved. However, it is clear than none were officially released for circulation or other purposes.

The comment by VKurtB is incorrect. The subject has never been adjudicated, so criminality is not "indisputable." But confiscation as theft of Government property and prosecution seem likely.

Also, it is not like the 1933 DE, since the DE were approved for normal production and the 1964-D dollars were not.

All 1933 DE’s other than the “legal one” and the two Smithsonians are officially stolen goods, by virtue of a precedential decision of our federal courts. Therefore, any attempt to buy or sell one is a criminal act per se. There are two options. 1) smuggle (a crime) it out of the country, or 2) turn it in to the Treasury Department. MOST foreign nations would aid the U.S. in recovery, except for criminal regimes, like Iran, Russia, China, and recently, probably Canada. LOL. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 11:35 PM, VKurtB said:

All 1933 DE’s other than the “legal one” and the two Smithsonians are officially stolen goods, by virtue of a precedential decision of our federal courts. Therefore, any attempt to buy or sell one is a criminal act per se. There are two options. 1) smuggle (a crime) it out of the country, or 2) turn it in to the Treasury Department. MOST foreign nations would aid the U.S. in recovery, except for criminal regimes, like Iran, Russia, China, and recently, probably Canada. LOL. 

...only illegal in the US n then only a handful of people would agree with that determination, thats why the others r not here n never will be....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/22/2022 at 11:33 PM, zadok said:

...only illegal in the US n then only a handful of people would agree with that determination, thats why the others r not here n never will be....

The number who agree is irrelevant. An unpopular piece of case law is still valid law, nonetheless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 1:24 PM, VKurtB said:

The number who agree is irrelevant. An unpopular piece of case law is still valid law, nonetheless. 

True.  But reverals happen on far more important and substantive issues, like PLESSY V. FERGUSON. (thumbsu 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 12:34 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

True.  But reverals happen on far more important and substantive issues, like PLESSY V. FERGUSON. (thumbsu 

A stupid coin case doesn’t have a shot. The 3rd Circuit has decided it en banc, there is no other Circuit to which to direct such a case, and the SCOTUS has reviewed it and let it stand. It is as over as any legal matter ever is. The 3rd Circuit is bound by its own precedent and no one else can get to the case, OR ANY SIMILAR, save for one legal gambit- shoehorning it into the DC Circuit. Legitimate title to any further 1933DE’s is NOT a fact-dependent inquiry. It is a matter of settled law. 

Edited by VKurtB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 1:39 PM, VKurtB said:

A stupid coin case doesn’t have a shot. The 3rd Circuit has decided it en banc, there is no other Circuit to which to direct such a case, and the SCOTUS has reviewed it and let it stand. It is as over as any legal matter ever is. The 3rd Circuit is bound by its own precedent and no one else can get to the case, OR ANY SIMILAR, save for one legal gambit- shoehorning it into the DC Circuit. Legitimate title to any further 1933DE’s is NOT a fact-dependent inquiry. It is a matter of settled law. 

...legitimate title means very little to the current owners...they still have the coins n get to enjoy their ownership, just privately....the only crux is they cant be sold publicly in the US.... no one really cares bout the questionable 3rd circuit findings anyway nor has any respect for how the case was handled....the real win is they r still out there....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 6:18 PM, zadok said:

...legitimate title means very little to the current owners...they still have the coins n get to enjoy their ownership, just privately....the only crux is they cant be sold publicly in the US.... no one really cares bout the questionable 3rd circuit findings anyway nor has any respect for how the case was handled....the real win is they r still out there....

How much do you want to bet that if the holder of the one they think they know where it is shows up on an airline manifest for overseas, so does the FBI?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 7:25 PM, VKurtB said:

How much do you want to bet that if the holder of the one they think they know where it is shows up on an airline manifest for overseas, so does the FBI?

...u dont seriously believe that the FBI actually has any idea of the wherebouts of any of the coins do u?...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 6:28 PM, zadok said:

...u dont seriously believe that the FBI actually has any idea of the wherebouts of any of the coins do u?...

Yes, I do. Three of the probable four. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 6:30 PM, zadok said:

...never retrieve any of them in our lifetimes....

No fair. My expected lifetime ain’t that much. Another surgery just last week. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
2 2