First Silver Dollar 1 1

[MarkFeld]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:31 PM, RWB said:

No need to be snippity.....So much of the stuff about that coin is bologna that I am very skeptical. I'm not disputing facts - including that the copper piece and patched up silver piece are of the same die state. That alone, and that is about all there is, establishes very little. I would like to see this and other "special" pieces examined in the open by multiple experts from the TPGS and elsewhere.

How about simply cutting out the hype and lies, and merely prepare a factual, clear scientific examination and analysis of data, not financially suspect opinions. That will benefit everyone.

I understand that you dislike hype - so do I. But if you don’t dispute that the copper and silver examples are from the same die state, I don’t understand how you can say “It is also perfectly conceivable that is the was the very last 1794 silver dollar struck.” You must know better than that.

[GoldFinger1969]

Without getting my head taken off....what's the story with how this is or might be the first -- or one of the first -- silver dollars ever struck ?  Has the pedigree of ownership been established?  Where in the timeline do things get hazy ? 

[zadok]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Without getting my head taken off....what's the story with how this is or might be the first -- or one of the first -- silver dollars ever struck ?  Has the pedigree of ownership been established?  Where in the timeline do things get hazy ? 

decapitation....there is no time line, just pros n cons...there is some supporting details that could indicate that this specific coin coin be among the very earliest struck due to consistency of die state with that of a know trial pc in a diff metal....on the cons side there is no supporting anything to dispute that premise other than the same old bs from the same  bser that since there is no empirical documentation then it must be false, basically just a biased opinion, nothing more....the scales tip slightly in favor of the pros....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:12 AM, zadok said:

decapitation....there is no time line, just pros n cons...there is some supporting details that could indicate that this specific coin coin be among the very earliest struck due to consistency of die state with that of a know trial pc in a diff metal....on the cons side there is no supporting anything to dispute that premise other than the same old bs from the same  bser that since there is no empirical documentation then it must be false, basically just a biased opinion, nothing more....the scales tip slightly in favor of the pros....

Thanks....and I take it there are about 140 survivors so time of striking is key to value, right ?

[Conder101]

On 1/30/2022 at 2:40 PM, RWB said:

If Rittenhouse and friends were trying to make something special, why use a patched planchet. Why select a planchet with adjustment marks?

Those are also my arguments against it being the first.

Now it IS one of the first coins.  The die clearly had some polishing done to it to give the PL surfaces to the theoretical first/presentation coin and those polished surfaces were still present when this coin was struck.  Another proof of it being one of the first coins struck is that it is the earliest die stage known for the 1794 dollars, and is the only dollar known from this die stage.  So this could conceivably be the second dollar or at least one of the first few.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Conder101

[MarkFeld]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks....and I take it there are about 140 survivors so time of striking is key to value, right ?

Condition is key to value.

[numisport]

This one is higher grade example struck on a more attractive planchet in what appears to be a relatively early die state as well. Which strike is it 

And here is another but with XF specimenry.  Did I just coin a new word ? Die state on this one ?

[RWB]

On 2/2/2022 at 10:57 PM, MarkFeld said:

I understand that you dislike hype - so do I. But if you don’t dispute that the copper and silver examples are from the same die state, I don’t understand how you can say “It is also perfectly conceivable that is the was the very last 1794 silver dollar struck.” You must know better than that.

...and you must know better than to make assumptions without facts. One connection with an assumed "pattern piece" does not make the case for this being the "first" silver dollar struck. Common 18th and 19th century practice was to document "special" items be they for presentation, official approval or other uses. There are several US Mint letters that perform this function. Additionally, anything "special" was also made carefully and of the best quality obtainable -- not the description of a coin struck on an adjusted, holed and patched planchet, regardless of detail.

This 1794, like so many recently (20 years) coin labeled "specimen" "special" "prototype" "special proof" etc., is visually interesting, but carries absolutely no factual support.

[MarkFeld]

On 2/3/2022 at 10:28 AM, RWB said:

...and you must know better than to make assumptions without facts. One connection with an assumed "pattern piece" does not make the case for this being the "first" silver dollar struck. Common 18th and 19th century practice was to document "special" items be they for presentation, official approval or other uses. There are several US Mint letters that perform this function. Additionally, anything "special" was also made carefully and of the best quality obtainable -- not the description of a coin struck on an adjusted, holed and patched planchet, regardless of detail.

This 1794, like so many recently (20 years) coin labeled "specimen" "special" "prototype" "special proof" etc., is visually interesting, but carries absolutely no factual support.

I’m not making any assumptions and I haven’t indicated that I thought the coin was the first one struck or that it’s a “Specimen” strike. So it seems as if you’re either deflecting or stuck on what bothers you regarding what others have said about the coin.

I’ve taken issue with your comment “It is also perfectly conceivable that is the was the very last 1794 silver dollar struck.” You still haven’t explained how that could be.

[GoldFinger1969]

It's also possible that if this coin IS special that the documentation and "story" behind it being special was transmitted ORALLY overe the years instead of in-writing, right ?

Collectors/people in the 1800's probably told specific facts rather than had it in print.  And photography wasn't widely available until the 1860's anyways.

[MarkFeld]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's also possible that if this coin IS special that the documentation and "story" behind it being special was transmitted ORALLY overe the years instead of in-writing, right ?

Collectors/people in the 1800's probably told specific facts rather than had it in print.  And photography wasn't widely available until the 1860's anyways.

Of course it’s possible. But it doesn’t matter, since we don’t know.

[zadok]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks....and I take it there are about 140 survivors so time of striking is key to value, right ?

less than 200 for sure...always garner attention when on the market, the old supply n demand thing...im not aware that time or sequence of striking adds any value mostly just grade n quality of striking...the more advanced collectors get into the early die state differential more so that the peons like us.....

[zadok]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:16 AM, numisport said:

This one is higher grade example struck on a more attractive planchet in what appears to be a relatively early die state as well. Which strike is it 

And here is another but with XF specimenry.  Did I just coin a new word ? Die state on this one ?

...bastardized an old one is more likely....

[RWB]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:35 PM, MarkFeld said:

Of course it’s possible. But it doesn’t matter, since we don’t know.

Agreed, and that's the point. We actually know almost nothing - at least published - about the coin except for piles of horse manure mixed with greedy speculation and pig farm runoff. If someone wants to spend several million on it, that's OK. But - the price of the thing does not change the thing -- a sow's ear is still a sow's ear. (Are you listening Vincent Van Gogh ?)

[MarkFeld]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:32 PM, RWB said:

Agreed, and that's the point. We actually know almost nothing - at least published - about the coin except for piles of horse manure mixed with greedy speculation and pig farm runoff. If someone wants to spend several million on it, that's OK. But - the price of the thing does not change the thing -- a sow's ear is still a sow's ear. (Are you listening Vincent Van Gogh ?)

 “It is also perfectly conceivable that is the was the very last 1794 silver dollar struck.” 
 

You still haven’t explained how that could be.

[RWB]

Exactly the same as being the first - fact-less speculation, and worth every sou

Edited February 3, 2022 by RWB

[MarkFeld]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:49 PM, RWB said:

Exactly the same as being the first - fact-less speculation, and worth every sou

I see. The obviously early die state of the coin is just “fact-less speculation” so “It is also perfectly conceivable that is the was the very last 1794 silver dollar struck.” Heaven forbid that you admit your comment was bologna. 
I’ve now given up on trying to have reasonable discussions with you - it’s not worth the effort.

[LNCS]

I see no comments regarding the pattern struck, which if I remember, only matches this coin. My memory is a little foggy on it and I am sure Bruce has no desire to go over it again.

[MarkFeld]

On 2/4/2022 at 11:35 AM, LNCS said:

I see no comments regarding the pattern struck, which if I remember, only matches this coin. My memory is a little foggy on it and I am sure Bruce has no desire to go over it again.

I made reference to the copper pattern earlier in the thread. And as I understand it, your memory is correct.