The NGC Purge - Goodbye Dealers 0

[Fenntucky Mike]

A tier was removed from across the aisle, and this looks to have made some notes less expensive to submit. Such as specimens, proofs and essays, and contemporary counterfeits found in the standard references. 

[VKurtB]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can anybody give me an approximation -- for either NGC or PCGS -- what it would cost per coin to send them in for TPG certification ? 

1....I assume it goes up as the value of the coins goes up, right ?

2....If you are a member you get a cheaper price than if you just send in without membership, right ?

3....If you send in alot of coins (membership or non-membership), I assume the price goes down all other things like value of coins the same ?

4....Assume membership....I send in a Morgan worth $150, a Saint worth $2,500 and a MCMVII HR worth $15,000 for grading -- what can I expect to pay for each of those (ballpark estimates) ?

As you can probably tell, no, I have never sent in a coin for grading. 

 

 

1) not necessarily. There are ranges. 
 

2) if you aren’t a member, you cannot submit at all

 

3) no, the tier prices are fixed except for Elite members. 

[RWB]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:20 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Ditto. Looks like a $1 increase, per coin, for Modern and Economy, then $2 per for Specialty Gold and Standard. The other tiers look to have remained the same.

Edit: https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/9688/ngc-2022-price-changes/

This is now common for Florida businesses. Locally it's called "DeSantis' Iguana Tax." A side effect of the spread of Covid-19 was an increase in iguana fertility, and the small extra charge is the estimated cost of rounding up the critters and processing them into cat food, and imitation caviar exported to Russia. Putin loves the stuff on biscuits during his afternoon "tea and terror" planning meetings. He wants to force Ukrainians to "like" the stuff.

Edited January 18, 2022 by RWB

[Conder101]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:59 PM, gmarguli said:

You do realize that dealers received this 15% discount already. I believe all the bullet points are already available to dealers. 

What did dealers have to do before this to be authorized dealers?  I don't know but I suspect they had to submit a certain level of submissions annually.  Is it possible that a lot of small dealers who submitted enough to become authorized dealers initially have now slacked off on their submissions but are still benefiting from the 15% discount?  If so this $199 fee would make up for the fees lost to those authorized dealers who aren't submitting enough or shake them out

 

On 1/18/2022 at 2:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can anybody give me an approximation -- for either NGC or PCGS -- what it would cost per coin to send them in for TPG certification ? 

The cost is going to vary depending on the value of the coins and the number of coins in the submission.  I ran the numbers awhile back for NGC for submission using the economy tier (which the two saints you mentioned would not qualify for, but the Morgan would). and if you sent in 5 coins at that level they would work out to an average of $27.50 each.  But if you sent in just ONE coin it would cost $72 for that coin.  The difference being that the fees and shipping/insurance would be split between the five coins in the first case but all dumped on the one coin in the second case.

[MarkFeld]

On 1/18/2022 at 2:18 PM, Conder101 said:

What did dealers have to do before this to be authorized dealers?  I don't know but I suspect they had to submit a certain level of submissions annually.  Is it possible that a lot of small dealers who submitted enough to become authorized dealers initially have now slacked off on their submissions but are still benefiting from the 15% discount?  If so this $199 fee would make up for the fees lost to those authorized dealers who aren't submitting enough or shake them out

 

The cost is going to vary depending on the value of the coins and the number of coins in the submission.  I ran the numbers awhile back for NGC for submission using the economy tier (which the two saints you mentioned would not qualify for, but the Morgan would). and if you sent in 5 coins at that level they would work out to an average of $27.50 each.  But if you sent in just ONE coin it would cost $72 for that coin.  The difference being that the fees and shipping/insurance would be split between the five coins in the first case but all dumped on the one coin in the second case.

In case it wasn't already included above, there's an additional processing fee, per invoice.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:10 PM, RWB said:

This is now common for Florida businesses. Locally it's called "DeSantis' Iguana Tax." A side effect of the spread of Covid-19 was an increase in iguana fertility, and the small extra charge is the estimated cost of rounding up the critters and processing them into cat food, and imitation caviar exported to Russia. Putin loves the stuff on biscuits during his afternoon "tea and terror" planning meetings. He wants to force Ukrainians to "like" the stuff.

During Catherine the Great's reign they used to play a game in the Petit Hermitage which consisted of everyone writing down "Iguana" on their place setting, the setting would be lowered through the table and floor into the kitchen where the chefs would place candied Iguana tails on all but one plate. On the winner's plate, a live Iguana was placed from which the tail would be freshly harvested and turned into guacamole with a touch of chervil. The tailless Iguana was free to roam the palace and had access to even the Empress's private chambers until its tail regenerated.  

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike

[gmarguli]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:18 PM, Conder101 said:

What did dealers have to do before this to be authorized dealers?  I don't know but I suspect they had to submit a certain level of submissions annually.  Is it possible that a lot of small dealers who submitted enough to become authorized dealers initially have now slacked off on their submissions but are still benefiting from the 15% discount?  If so this $199 fee would make up for the fees lost to those authorized dealers who aren't submitting enough or shake them out

Nope. No minimum submissions annually. 

The 15% discount is there because no dealer would ever submit a coin for a customer if they didn't get paid for it. The 15% is compensation to the dealer to do the submission. Of course, the dealer also benefits from the lower cost and the TPG benefits from dealers pushing their product. 

Not sure why any service would want to "shake out" customers. Especially true of dealers whose submissions may greatly vary over the years. 

Make no mistake about it, the $199 fee is being charged because they think they can. To me, that's the s**tiest kind of fee a business can charge. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by gmarguli

[Revenant]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:36 AM, numisport said:

So I suppose my Associate membership is going up as well ?

Anything is possible, but the associate membership just gives you the right to submit coins. It doesn't afford the types of discounts this does (or an Elite membership for us non-dealers).

 

[Revenant]

Call me crazy but I had thought they already had to pay to be an authorized dealer.

For people that have a business that is an ongoing concern, I don't think $200 will move the needle much. For people that have just been sitting on it and not using it much, they'll probably get rid of it.

 

Side note: I got the email recently about the price increases on grading fees. I wasn't at all surprised, but I was very glad I went ahead and got a recent submission off and in the mail.

[zadok]

...no one made anyone here become either a coin collector or a coin dealer...price increases, either grading fees or annual membership fees, r just a part of doing the business or participating in the hobby...if $199 annual fee or the few dollar increases in grading fees r too much then considering a change of business or hobby might be the answer....the increases should be shared between the dealers n the collectors regardless of the reasons behind the increases...there is no good reason that the dealers should be exempt just because they submit more coins, without the collectors they sell too they would have no business...many, most if not all of the dealers i buy from often make up their annual fees on a single coin, its a bunch of whinyness about nothing.....

[Fenntucky Mike]

Could be worse, the UK Modern tier rate was raised to £17 ($23.18), Germany €20 ($22.69).

Edited January 19, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike

[Conder101]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:47 PM, MarkFeld said:

In case it wasn't already included above, there's an additional processing fee, per invoice.

When I ran the NGC cost numbers I did include the Invoice fee.

 

On 1/18/2022 at 7:54 PM, gmarguli said:

Nope. No minimum submissions annually. 

So anyone could just say he was a dealer and get a 15% discount?

[Coinbuf]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:03 PM, Conder101 said:

 

So anyone could just say he was a dealer and get a 15% discount?

I would hope that NGC requires some level of proof before assigning a new applicant a dealer account.   However, if the number of dealer accounts has grown to an unwieldy amount with many only sending in a small handful of submissions, this change could be a way to shake out those non dealers and/or dealers that only submit a handful of times who are receiving the benefits of a dealer account.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:16 PM, Coinbuf said:

I would hope that NGC requires some level of proof before assigning a new applicant a dealer account.   However, if the number of dealer accounts has grown to an unwieldy amount with many only sending in a small handful of submissions, this change could be a way to shake out those non dealers and/or dealers that only submit a handful of times who are receiving the benefits of a dealer account.

That's what I thought !!  

Does being a dealer and paying that Membership fee with the cheaper rate entail any minimum number of submissions ?  If not, then any collector might add in the cost of membership as an added grading cost and go for it.

If I"m a collector and only want 3-5 coins graded a year, then paying the membership fee probably isn't worth it, right ?  Unless they are very valuable coins. 

OTOH, if I am an individual and want to get 20 or 30 or 40 coins graded in a year, then getting dealer membership probably makes sense even if I have never sold a coin in my life if that 15% discount makes a difference.

[Coinbuf]

On 1/19/2022 at 4:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's what I thought !!  

Does being a dealer and paying that Membership fee with the cheaper rate entail any minimum number of submissions ?  If not, then any collector might add in the cost of membership as an added grading cost and go for it.

If I"m a collector and only want 3-5 coins graded a year, then paying the membership fee probably isn't worth it, right ?  Unless they are very valuable coins. 

OTOH, if I am an individual and want to get 20 or 30 or 40 coins graded in a year, then getting dealer membership probably makes sense even if I have never sold a coin in my life if that 15% discount makes a difference.

The breakeven point for the $199 fee is just over $1,300 in grading costs, 1,300 X .15 =195.   So once you spend $1,300 in grading fees you have covered the $199 cost.   How many coins or submissions that would take depends on the tier you are submitting under, the less expensive the tier the more coins you would need to submit to reach the $1,300 threshold.   If you assume only submitting under the current standard tier rate of $40 per coin you have to submit 33 coins to reach the breakeven point.  However, the express tier would cut that number in half at $80 per coin, and if using the walkthrough tier, you only need 8 coins at $175 per coin.  So, in general you would need to submit at a minimum 9+ coins to see any benefit from the 15% discount afforded to a dealer account.  That sounds simple, but unless you are sending in a ton of moderns, errors, or US mint release coins it could be difficult to come up with enough classic coins worth the cost and time to submit to make it past that breakeven point.

[gmarguli]

On 1/19/2022 at 1:03 PM, Conder101 said:

So anyone could just say he was a dealer and get a 15% discount?

I know both PCGS & NGC have accepted a lot of very small time dealers. No idea what the cutoff is. They do check references and I suspect they could easily check to make sure the person is an active seller of coins in some marketplace. 

An NGC grader told me to get a dealer account after I had submitted 720 coins for grading. It hadn't occurred to me before. The application wanted basic info on me and my business. They also asked for 4 numismatic references who they actually called. Looking back, one of the references participates in this thread and another now works for NGC. 

I can't find my original PCGS application, but I'm pretty sure it was similar. I recall it asking similar info and also for references. My only reference was the then-President of PCGS and shockingly my approval sailed through at lightening speed.    After acceptance they had me sign a 14 page document promising my life away. 

[Just Bob]

On 1/19/2022 at 7:37 PM, gmarguli said:

 After acceptance they had me sign a 14 page document promising my life away. 

So, now, you have no life. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Just Bob

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:37 PM, gmarguli said:

I know both PCGS & NGC have accepted a lot of very small time dealers. No idea what the cutoff is. They do check references and I suspect they could easily check to make sure the person is an active seller of coins in some marketplace. 

In the past, being a dealer probably meant having a B&M store.  Size didn't matter.

Today ?  Anybody with a website, an email, and $20 worth of business cards can call themselves a "dealer."  I've never sold a coin myself, but if my volume of "buys" were high enough, I could probably call myself a dealer and justify the title.

I guess if you were REALLY a dealer, you'd list the business and any income on your IRS 1040.

[Conder101]

I would suspect you would at least have to have a sales tax/resale permit, but those are easy to obtain.