"Liberty" cap and related 1 1

[RWB]

In another thread the subject of Liberty wearing a cap came up. Several comments were made which suggest a thread on this subject might be of interest. Following are two quotations from director Samuel Moore on the subject. The director contacted Thomas Jefferson about his recollections of a figure emblematic of liberty and use of a cap in a symbolic sense.

            It seems expedient, if indeed there is no an official obligation, to complete the series of our dies; and the unsettled question – “What is the proper emblem of Liberty for our Coins?” is entitled to consideration before a new original die of our money unit if prepared. Permit me therefore to request information on the following points, as having a fair relation to the subject.

1.      What figure, or device, may be considered as intended by Congress, or the administration, at the establishment of the Mint, by the words in the law, “an impression emblematic of Liberty” [?]

2.      Was the cap of Liberty adopted or alluded to, as a fit emblem, bu any act of the confederation, or of any of the states, or by popular usage, during the revolution, or previously to 1792, so that this device may be supposed to have been intended?

3.      When emblems or representation of Liberty were in those times resorted to, on public occasions, of what description were they[?]

4.      If the Liberty Cap be the emblem intended in the law, is it proper to place it on the head of the figure personifying Liberty?

Such information or suggestions as you may find it convenient to favor me with, will be thankfully received. When I am satisfied as to the impression emblematic of Liberty which can be sustained on the best ground, a few pattern pieces will be struck, to be submitted to the consideration of the Government, which if approved, or with such modifications as shall be directed, may fix the character of our Coins.

Supposing the female head to be an appropriate figure, three views in relation to it present themselves. To adhere to the present dress cap, or copy it so nearly as to exhibit the appearance of any specific change. To exclude the cap, and adopt an easy disposition of the hair, with no ornament but the band of Liberty. To adopt the classic style of cap, which though resembling the cap of Liberty nearly in form, would nevertheless be distinguished from it, by being worn on the head of the figure, if it be true that the cap of Liberty is out of place there. [Moore to Jefferson February 14, 1825.]

A more direct discussion was presented in 1834:

In 1805 or 1806, the headdress of a lady of this city, considered as a pleasing example of the fashion of the time, was copied by the Engraver of the Mint on the die of the silver coins, from a miniature placed before him, as alluded in my letter of the 9th of July....

It is, however, obvious to remark, that thought the Cap of liberty appears on the most unquestionable grounds to be forbidden on the head of the figure representing Liberty, as an unfit emblem of the condition of the United States; it may not necessarily follow that the cap should not be introduced in some other manner. On this aspect of the question I would respectfully observe, that if this emblem can be dispensed with, as in fact it has thus far been dispensed with, except on the copper coins during a very brief period, there are good reasons against its admission. The cap emblem properly relates to a full length figure of liberty. It should be borne on a wand or staff, sustained in her hand, or laid on the pedestal on which she stands. When detached from the figure, I perceive no place or form in which to dispose of it with tolerable effect. As borne on the cent in 1794 and 1796 it is incongruous and unsightly. A full length figure is, however, illy [sic: ill] suited for a coins, from the exceedingly diminutive proportions to which it must be reduced in the smaller denominations.
    On the whole, believing that the Pileus is not an essential emblem of Liberty, that it is not the emblem intended by the law, and that it must to some extent impair the beauty of our coin, its employment as an emblem now would be viewed with some regret. The precise impression designed in the Act of 1792 is not distinctly apparent, but the device introduced on the new gold coins seems founded on good authority, as well as in good taste. It is a slight modification of that borne on the silver coins for the first ten years, differing therefrom chiefly in the position of the word “Liberty,” now inscribed on the cincture which controls the arrangement of the hair, after the manner exhibited in No. 7, a specimen of the copper coinage during the Administration of Mr. Madison. I cannot be entertain the conception that there is fitness in this device for the object in view – Liberty restrained only by the band of liberty – suggesting the idea of the Liberty of each controlled only by the equal Liberty of all, which is but another expression for liberty regulated by equal laws. [Moore to Sec Woodbury October 8, 1834]

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by RWB

[DWLange]

Moore's letter could be the reason that the Classic Head gold coins, initiated during his administration, lacked a cap on Liberty's portrait.

[RWB]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:34 AM, DWLange said:

Moore's letter could be the reason that the Classic Head gold coins, initiated during his administration, lacked a cap on Liberty's portrait.

Yes. That was the reason he gave. The same letter (14 pages long) also supports his decision to remove EPU, although that had begun with the quarter a few years earlier.

Jefferson's 1825 reply was basically that he found nothing in his papers about the cap or what was supposed to be "emblematic" of the concept of liberty. He said he remembered nothing about the subject.

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB  I have two opinions about this matter, regrettably neither complimentary, but then what would one come to expect from a self-described rank- amateur?

I did not see the term "Phrygian cap" used, but no matter, to me whatever the concept it was meant to symbolize, does nothing to enhance the side-view facial truncated representation of Liberty. In fact, where used, it looks downright unflattering and shabby. Jacqueline Kennedy's pillbox by comparison was simple, fashionable and quite becoming.

The other less complimentary impression I haven't been able to shake is that of the 19th century ruffian selling penny papers wearing, what else?  An oversized newsboy's cap. Fashionable women and ladies attending church services wear fancy hats with wide brims adorned with flowers, ribbons, feathers... or nothing at all.

I believe a simple headband engraved with "LIBERTY" as can be found on many coins works best.

I have no problem deferring or genuflecting to those far more grounded in the hobby that I ever will be.  

[RWB]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Fashionable women and ladies attending church services wear fancy hats with wide brims adorned with flowers, ribbons, feathers... or nothing at all.

The ones at my church wear nothing at all. It's a very open and affectionate church...not an Evangelinical in the bunch.

[Woods020]

On 10/5/2021 at 6:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB  I have two opinions about this matter, regrettably neither complimentary, but then what would one come to expect from a self-described rank- amateur?

I did not see the term "Phrygian cap" used, but no matter, to me whatever the concept it was meant to symbolize, does nothing to enhance the side-view facial truncated representation of Liberty. In fact, where used, it looks downright unflattering and shabby. Jacqueline Kennedy's pillbox by comparison was simple, fashionable and quite becoming.

The other less complimentary impression I haven't been able to shake is that of the 19th century ruffian selling penny papers wearing, what else?  An oversized newsboy's cap. Fashionable women and ladies attending church services wear fancy hats with wide brims adorned with flowers, ribbons, feathers... or nothing at all.

I believe a simple headband engraved with "LIBERTY" as can be found on many coins works best.

I have no problem deferring or genuflecting to those far more grounded in the hobby that I ever will be.  

They spiced it up with wings for mercs atleast. I don’t see many church ladies wearing hats with wings 😁

[zadok]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB  I have two opinions about this matter, regrettably neither complimentary, but then what would one come to expect from a self-described rank- amateur?

I did not see the term "Phrygian cap" used, but no matter, to me whatever the concept it was meant to symbolize, does nothing to enhance the side-view facial truncated representation of Liberty. In fact, where used, it looks downright unflattering and shabby. Jacqueline Kennedy's pillbox by comparison was simple, fashionable and quite becoming.

The other less complimentary impression I haven't been able to shake is that of the 19th century ruffian selling penny papers wearing, what else?  An oversized newsboy's cap. Fashionable women and ladies attending church services wear fancy hats with wide brims adorned with flowers, ribbons, feathers... or nothing at all.

I believe a simple headband engraved with "LIBERTY" as can be found on many coins works best.

I have no problem deferring or genuflecting to those far more grounded in the hobby that I ever will be.  

...but, but, but...marianne on ur beloved roosters is wearing a phrygian cap...???...

[Mohawk]

I've only been in a church one single time in my life, and that was to see a silent movie with actual live accompaniment with an organ.  The film was the 1925 Phantom of the Opera.  It was close to Halloween and it was a very cool experience.  No one was wearing any crazy hats, which is the most I can speak to the subject of hats in churches.

[Henri Charriere]

To be honest, this hat-wearing spectacle, which includes man and beast, is now most pronounced at the so-called annual Easter Parade which is nothing more than parishioners exiting St. Patrick's Cathedral onto Fifth Avenue after the second late morning service in eye-catching costumes and headwear.

On 10/5/2021 at 9:24 PM, zadok said:

...but, but, but...marianne on ur beloved roosters is wearing a phrygian cap...???...

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:34 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

To be honest, this hat-wearing spectacle, which includes man and beast, is now most pronounced at the so-called annual Easter Parade which is nothing more than parishioners exiting St. Patrick's Cathedral onto Fifth Avenue after the second late morning service in eye-catching costumes and headwear.

 

I am surprised you knew that! I only found out recently that the "horn of plenty" placed to the right of the date was added as an anti-counterfeiting measure.

[zadok]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am surprised you knew that! I only found out recently that the "horn of plenty" placed to the right of the date was added as an anti-counterfeiting measure.

ye of little faith......

[Conder101]

On 10/5/2021 at 7:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Fashionable women and ladies attending church services wear fancy hats with wide brims adorned with flowers, ribbons, feathers... or nothing at all.

But what did fashionable women in the 1790's wear?  From the first part of Moore 1834 letter it seems that the cap on the capped bust silver coinage was the fashionable headwear in the early 1800's

[RWB]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:06 PM, Conder101 said:

But what did fashionable women in the 1790's wear?  From the first part of Moore 1834 letter it seems that the cap on the capped bust silver coinage was the fashionable headwear in the early 1800's

That was exactly Moore's point. The head gear was part of contemporary fashion, not a symbol of freedom or liberty. His authority was Eckfeldt - who was there almost from the beginning of the Mint and knew the inside stories.

Moore's other point was that Liberty did not wear the "Pileus." The cap was a sign of manumission from slavery and was presented to the freed slave by the Goddess Liberty. It could be placed on a pole or wand, but NEVER worn by Liberty herself.

[DWLange]

Apples and oranges---The cap on pole was a pileus and a classical reference. The cap on head was a mob cap, which was a contemporary fashion.

[zadok]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:06 PM, Conder101 said:

But what did fashionable women in the 1790's wear?  From the first part of Moore 1834 letter it seems that the cap on the capped bust silver coinage was the fashionable headwear in the early 1800's

lots of bonnets in contemporary drawings etc...guess need to define fashionable first...i always just went with what ive seen martha, abigail n dolly wear in depictions....

[RWB]

All of the US coin Libertys except the early gold wore a married woman's hair covering - or mob cap. (Married women coiled their hair on the head; unmarried woman usually wore the hair down or in braids of some sort. Divorced or widowed women were often ostracized as if they were criminals.)

[Henri Charriere]

I might as well come right out and say it:  that hat, however configured then, never ceases to conjure up the specter of one of Walter Disney's sleeping dwarves now, the name of which [fortunately] escapes me, ready access to Google, notwithstanding.  🐓 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:03 PM, RWB said:

All of the US coin Libertys except the early gold wore a married woman's hair covering - or mob cap. (Married women coiled their hair on the head; unmarried woman usually wore the hair down or in braids of some sort. Divorced or widowed women were often ostracized as if they were criminals.)

You have covered all the bases so nicely that I suspect this review will meet with @VKurtB's all-encompassing historical millinery knowledge and an unconditional approval.

                       🐓 

[VKurtB]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

You have covered all the bases so nicely that I suspect this review will meet with @VKurtB's all-encompassing historical millinery knowledge and an unconditional approval.

                       🐓 

Much the same way as Amish men stop shaving their beards when they marry. They continue to shave the ‘’stash. 

[RWB]

"Sew be it."

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:42 PM, VKurtB said:

Much the same way as Amish men stop shaving their beards when they marry. They continue to shave the ‘’stash. 

I shaved off my beard for my wife's mother and her more polite, vocal sisters, on July 4, 2016, and got married the next day. I no longer looked like the man she intended to marry and she stared at me uncomfortably. A lot.

This time, 5 years later, she refused to let me cut it, so I did it in stages. Then one day, I asked her very politely: "May I shave it off [during a premature, hot and humid June heat  wave?"]  She put her Bible down, looked at me, said,"Oui," ... and that was the end of it.  It pays to be on the side of the boss.

[RWB]

Why did you give your beard to your wife's mother? Couldn't she grow her own?

On 10/8/2021 at 10:54 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Then one day, I asked her very politely: "May I shave it off [during a premature, hot and humid June heat  wave?"]  She put her Bible down, looked at me, said,"Oui," ... and that was the end of it.

Ahhh....so you caught her in the bathroom!