Planchet error? 1st coin sent in 1981 p Kennedy 0

[J P M]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:00 PM, VKurtB said:

After seeing the two edge on, I’m back to liking the SBA planchet theory. But so hard to be certain. Good mystery. 

 I like VKurtB Idea but maybe adding to it With Condor's Idea.  Holding a SBA over a Kennedy half it looks like the letters would be cut almost in half around the edge. I go with Kennedy planchet but cut out of SBE stock or something that is thinner and did not allow the metal to push out to make a full rim. My best guess LoL ...........No mater it is still a cool find.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by J P Mashoke

[kellyt]

On 10/22/2021 at 6:03 AM, J P Mashoke said:

 I like VKurtB Idea but maybe adding to it With Condor's Idea.  Holding a SBA over a Kennedy half it looks like the letters would be cut almost in half around the edge. I go with Kennedy planchet but cut out of SBE stock or something that is thinner and did not allow the metal to push out to make a full rim. My best guess LoL ...........No mater it is still a cool find.  

I’m hoping your theory is right, the combo of the two. While waiting for it to go through the rounds I looked up examples. The only one that comes close was a 1979 Kennedy on an sba Planchet. It was an almost dead ringer. I’ll find the pic and post it… okay I think this is the one I saw. It also has the “trust” cut off and surrounding letters at the border kind of choppy. I suppose different circumstances can cause the same effect. But it helps me hope harder, haha. Wish I’d had a scale working so I knew the weight! (It’s a screenshot and I left in the obvious proof it’s a screen shot so it doesn’t look like I’m stealing the pic. Just an example)

[RWB]

FYI - Here is a Kennedy half (30.6mm diameter) with the diameter of an Anthony dollar (26.5mm, black circle) superimposed to scale.

Notes: A small dollar planchet would probably not seat in the center of the Kennedy half collar. If a vertical press were used for the halves, the dollar planchet would naturally fall to the bottom of the collar. The superimposition does not match - or come close to matching - the illustrated coin. Would there be enough metal in the dollar planchet to fill out the Kennedy portrait and the reverse eagle design? How could reeding be applied to a planchet that is significantly smaller than the half dollar? How does one get uniform detail on the coin when the dies are convex and do not match the planchet upset height or angle? (An unrestricted planchet will likely expand unevenly and produce both a non-round coin, and degradation of the design due to unrestrained metal flow.)

As Condor's comments suggest, it takes a lot more than saying "it looks like" to establish the truth....or maybe this is really a "Specimen" coin?

Edited October 24, 2021 by RWB

[kellyt]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:50 AM, RWB said:

FYI - Here is a Kennedy half (30.6mm diameter) with the diameter of an Anthony dollar (26.5mm, black circle) superimposed to scale.

Notes: A small dollar planchet would probably not seat in the center of the Kennedy half collar. If a vertical press were used for the halves, the dollar planchet would naturally fall to the bottom of the collar. The superimposition does not match - or come close to matching - the illustrated coin. Would there be enough metal in the dollar planchet to fill out the Kennedy portrait and the reverse eagle design? How could reeding be applied to a planchet that is significantly smaller than the half dollar? How does on get uniform detail on the coin when the dies are convex and do not match the planchet upset height or angle? (An unrestricted planchet will likely expand unevenly and produce both a non-round coin, and degradation of the design due to unrestrained metal flow.)

As Condor's comments suggest, it take a lot more than saying "it looks like" to establish the truth....or maybe this is really a "Specimen" coin?

I’m not saying it is an official wrong planchet, just hoping a whole lot it is. But I agree with your analysis. I went back and looked up more examples. Seems there is an NGC 1979 similar to the other PCgs example I posted. (As much as I looked seems I would have seen the multiple versions already). I’ll post it here. It is cut off in the same areas as well. They both look to be from the Philadelphia mint too. Just noticing that. The one I sent is a 1981 P I believe. So maybe they all got put through the same machine. The only one that wasn’t a vertical press. Or they didn’t have those same presses there. I tried to find a quick vertical press example but couldn’t. You explained this well in your post, how the metal could have flowed out a bit filled the empty areas. Maybe that is what happened to some degree. The metal extended out from the SBA’s diameter boundary due to pressure. And it only went so far out. Why it did not form some oblong shape I don’t know. That is if the 1981 p is like these 1979 examples, a wrong planchet. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

The details being centered, reeding all the way around, the details appear to be above the rim and the fields tapper to the rim, I think the encasement theory is the most likely. Just too many things going against (or too many things having to go perfectly) this coin for me to think it is a planchet error, but hopefully I'm wrong.

$20 on a scale or $40+ taking a chance on grading, I'd have bought the scale. At any rate, good luck.

 

[kellyt]

Sad day on the home front. It was determined to be not suitable for grading. I appreciate the input, it’s been fun and has given me insight. I respect the decision. I’m curious to how the edges look to the 1979 p and 1980 p wrong Planchet sba coins now though. It’s a learning process. 

[Mohawk]

Man, Kelly, I'm sorry.  That sucks.  But you have the exact right outlook....it's a learning experience.  We've all had those disappointing, painful learning experiences in our lives and those are often the ones we learn the most from.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by Mohawk

[RWB]

Would have been helpful if they'd told you why it was "not suitable for certification." Was it wearing shoes and a shirt? Had it been vaccinated?

[kellyt]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:49 PM, RWB said:

Would have been helpful if they'd told you why it was "not suitable for certification." Was it wearing shoes and a shirt? Had it been vaccinated?

Hey thanks! Maybe they put a personal letter in the return shipping! Haha. But yeah, I sent it in with a mint error fee. Maybe it’ll state that it went through that too and not just sent back because it looked messed up.   I trust it did, but physically seeing them say it would be nice and why. I do want to look more into it. The metal in the other wrong Planchets did center and did not oblong. The metal also did go past what an sba boundary would be. I respect the decision. It’s just interesting too. Makes me want to see the edges of those other p coins. If they were similar to mine. I don’t have as much experience as those working at the grading companies but I am curious. I’ve learned a lot from the comments here and they are appreciated! 

[J P M]

Well now you can weigh it 

[RWB]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:25 PM, kellyt said:

did not oblong.

By an out-of-collar distortion, I meant only a minor out of round - not noticeably oblong or oval.

[kellyt]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:28 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Well now you can weigh it 

Most def. that’s the first thing I’m gonna do when I get it back and go from there. Thanks for the reminder! I didn’t see the mint error fee on the invoice. But it’s in the total. Because that’s what it added up to on the first digital one. Like where you fill out all the requests and stuff.  I’ll look again though. They just sent the invoice tonight. Not complaining. I was just thinking it would all be documented even down to them weighing it as proof. But it could still be post damage and weigh different. So weight difference wouldn’t matter much if they determined it wasn’t an error. However for my own curiosity I am going to look more into it and take in all the input and get some learning in. There may be more paper work and invoice stuff in the return.

Edited October 28, 2021 by kellyt

[kellyt]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:31 PM, RWB said:

By an out-of-collar distortion, I meant only a minor out of round - not noticeably oblong or oval.

Gotcha. I still only have pictures. When it comes back I can get a better look again. I appreciate the comments. 

[valk1999]

Many years ago I sent a suspect clad error Roosevelt dime right to the mint for their analysis.  I imagine the mint still provides this service if you can get to the right department or individual.  They determined my dime was subjected to excessive heating.

another possible avenue if you choose to explore.

 

[kellyt]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:39 PM, valk1999 said:

Many years ago I sent a suspect clad error Roosevelt dime right to the mint for their analysis.  I imagine the mint still provides this service if you can get to the right department or individual.  They determined my dime was subjected to excessive heating.

another possible avenue if you choose to explore.

 

That’s pretty neat. I’ll look into it. Thanks!