Any body know what's going on here? 0

[Rick621]

My brother just sent me pictures of two pennies. One appears to be a capped die the other just looks funny. Any input? The second one weights 3.02 gr.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Rick621
added weight

[Coinbuf]

The second one looks like damage from a bezel or some other type of holder the coin was pressed into.

[James Zyskowski]

The upper one has the faint image of Lincoln but how that happened?

The other day I mentioned that a coin looked like acid had been used on it. Same here

Edited September 3, 2021 by James Zyskowski

[Rick621]

If you look close you can see a horizonal line going across the obverse through where Lincoln's neck is and vertical lines going down from the horizonal line. I believe these are the Memorial from a capped die.

[Woods020]

It sure looks like a strike through late stage die cap based off the ones I’ve seen in references, but I’m no error expert by any means. It has the slight cupping you usually see on them as well. 
 

Any way you can weigh it to two decimal places? Curious to see if any meaningful metal has been lost. If not I think it would be hard to replicate that without altering the weight it would seem. 

[J P M]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:48 PM, Woods020 said:

It sure looks like a strike through late stage die cap based off the ones I’ve seen in references, but I’m no error expert by any means. It has the slight cupping you usually see on them as well. 
 

Any way you can weigh it to two decimal places? Curious to see if any meaningful metal has been lost. If not I think it would be hard to replicate that without altering the weight it would seem. 

I am no expert but it looks like a die error. I agree with what Wood's says. see what the weight is.

[GBrad]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:48 PM, Woods020 said:

It sure looks like a strike through late stage die cap based off the ones I’ve seen in references,

Hello Woods. I may be mistaken but I thought a late stage die cap would actually show more detail of the obverse images/devices as opposed to an early stage die cap  (assuming the cap stuck to the hammer die). 
I see some odd things on this coin (first one pictured)  the more I look a it. It looks to have the “cupping” effect you mentioned associated with a struck through cap but the surface of the coin looks weird to me, very grainy. Zooming in on the pics on my cell phone I can see what maybe looks like metal flow lines around the periphery of the obverse which I believe would be consistent with a coin stuck to the hammer die but only in a later stage strike I believe….. There does look to be extra stress points on the reverse in the form of numerous rim fins which once again would be indicative of a capped die strike. Extra pressure would be applied to the newly introduced blank planchet due to another coin being stuck to and taking up space on the hammer die, thus causing stress issues on the reverse. I do see the ghost images of both the Memorial and Linc’s silhouette you also mentioned.  I’m leaning more toward a mint error here but the obverse surface still looks odd IMHO. I hope the @Rick621 will give us a .00 decimal weight on this one.  Just my take here…..

Edited September 4, 2021 by GBrad

[Woods020]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:14 AM, GBrad said:

Hello Woods. I may be mistaken but I thought a late stage die cap would actually show more detail of the obverse images/devices as opposed to an early stage die cap  (assuming the cap stuck to the hammer die). 
I see some odd things on this coin (first one pictured)  the more I look a it. It looks to have the “cupping” effect you mentioned associated with a struck through cap but the surface of the coin looks weird to me, very grainy. Zooming in on the pics on my cell phone I can see what maybe looks like metal flow lines around the periphery of the obverse which I believe would be consistent with a coin stuck to the hammer die but only in a later stage strike I believe….. There does look to be extra stress points on the reverse in the form of numerous rim fins which once again would be indicative of a capped die strike. Extra pressure would be applied to the newly introduced blank planchet due to another coin being stuck to and taking up space on the hammer die, thus causing stress issues on the reverse. I do see the ghost images of both the Memorial and Linc’s silhouette you also mentioned.  I’m leaning more toward a mint error here but the obverse surface still looks odd IMHO. I hope the @Rick621 will give us a .00 decimal weight on this one.  Just my take here…..

It isn’t early and it isn’t the latest stage. When the die first gets "capped" the cap is a fairly normal coin and the first pieces struck through this cap are brockages. As the die continues to strike more coins the metal of the "cap" spreads up over the body of the die and the cap actually starts to look like a bottle cap or even a thimble. If the die stays capped the metal covering the die face gets pounded thinner and thinner until the designs of the die are again showing through but distorted. In the latest stages the design struck into the coin will look almost normal with just slight distortion because it is in effect being struck through a layer of metal foil. It eventually full erodes and begins striking normally again. Here is the progression of late stage  

[GBrad]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:29 PM, Woods020 said:

It isn’t early and it isn’t the latest stage. When the die first gets "capped" the cap is a fairly normal coin and the first pieces struck through this cap are brockages. As the die continues to strike more coins the metal of the "cap" spreads up over the body of the die and the cap actually starts to look like a bottle cap or even a thimble. If the die stays capped the metal covering the die face gets pounded thinner and thinner until the designs of the die are again showing through but distorted. In the latest stages the design struck into the coin will look almost normal with just slight distortion because it is in effect being struck through a layer of metal foil. It eventually full erodes and begins striking normally again. Here is the progression of late stage  

I agree totally with what was said above. A very early stage capped die will produce a brockage. This will result in a mirror like impression of the reverse on the obverse of the next coin, or coins struck in succession (once again referring to the hammer die here which the cap stuck to). 
As you said, the capped die will eventually erode away and, as a result, start revealing the obverse design elements on the actual hammer die itself on successive strikes to new planchets, still with diminishing distortion, as the now “metal foil”  continues to wears away.  
Now…….(pheww….) with that said, here is an excerpt from Mike Diamond from error-ref.com which may help sum up our question here about the op’s coin.  One caveat though: The last paragraph copy and pasted below, leaves me with this question. Mike clearly states that once the cap wears away that all that is left is a ghost image of the obverse. If this is the case, how can we also see a faint ghost image of the Memorial while at the same time there is also a very faint ghost like image of Lincoln’s silhouette? Maybe the capped die just happened to be at the exact point of diminishing return to have caused this of in fact this is a mint error…🤔

I think the more I study this, and relyon “what I thought I knew”… the more confused I have made myself…..   

By Mike Diamond:
“Still other obverse die caps have no design at all on the working face.  These “uniface die caps” strike coins that carry no design on their obverse face.

Theoretically, any sort of error coin can stick to a die and form a cap.   Thus the kinds of designs left on the planchets struck by a cap can be quite diverse and complex.

Regardless of what design (if any) it carries, the working face will eventually be worn smooth from striking a succession of planchets.  Thereafter the cap will only strike generic capped die strikes with no design on the obverse face except a raised ghost of the obverse design that bleeds through the thin floor of the cap”

[Woods020]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:34 PM, GBrad said:

I agree totally with what was said above. A very early stage capped die will produce a brockage. This will result in a mirror like impression of the reverse on the obverse of the next coin, or coins struck in succession (once again referring to the hammer die here which the cap stuck to). 
As you said, the capped die will eventually erode away and, as a result, start revealing the obverse design elements on the actual hammer die itself on successive strikes to new planchets, still with diminishing distortion, as the now “metal foil”  continues to wears away.  
Now…….(pheww….) with that said, here is an excerpt from Mike Diamond from error-ref.com which may help sum up our question here about the op’s coin.  One caveat though: The last paragraph copy and pasted below, leaves me with this question. Mike clearly states that once the cap wears away that all that is left is a ghost image of the obverse. If this is the case, how can we also see a faint ghost image of the Memorial while at the same time there is also a very faint ghost like image of Lincoln’s silhouette? Maybe the capped die just happened to be at the exact point of diminishing return to have caused this of in fact this is a mint error…🤔

I think the more I study this, and relyon “what I thought I knew”… the more confused I have made myself…..   

By Mike Diamond:
“Still other obverse die caps have no design at all on the working face.  These “uniface die caps” strike coins that carry no design on their obverse face.

Theoretically, any sort of error coin can stick to a die and form a cap.   Thus the kinds of designs left on the planchets struck by a cap can be quite diverse and complex.

Regardless of what design (if any) it carries, the working face will eventually be worn smooth from striking a succession of planchets.  Thereafter the cap will only strike generic capped die strikes with no design on the obverse face except a raised ghost of the obverse design that bleeds through the thin floor of the cap”

It does have some characteristics of a uniface. I was debating that as well. But it would be a little later in the uniface continuum since it does have some design elements. Regardless I think it’s worth getting an expert to evaluate. I personally will confuse myself the more I try with some of them. I do think this is a capped die strike through of some sort. Further than that I’ll let someone with much much more knowledge than myself, which doesn’t take much, in strike errors take it from there. This is one I do think warrants an expert opinion. But again that’s just my opinion. 

[GBrad]

On 9/4/2021 at 2:39 PM, Woods020 said:

It does have some characteristics of a uniface. I was debating that as well. But it would be a little later in the uniface continuum since it does have some design elements. Regardless I think it’s worth getting an expert to evaluate. I personally will confuse myself the more I try with some of them. I do think this is a capped die strike through of some sort. Further than that I’ll let someone with much much more knowledge than myself, which doesn’t take much, in strike errors take it from there. This is one I do think warrants an expert opinion. But again that’s just my opinion. 

Once again, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said Woods. I think it is mint error but just not sure which one it would exactly fall under. Getting outside of my lay grade here. If this is a “homemade job”, which I don’t think it is, this would be at the top of the list IMO. However, stuff like this I believe helps us all in the learning process which we all enjoy. I would be interested to see what an error expert would say about this one. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I'm no error expert but I tend to think this is a stuck thru die cap as well. I totally agree that if an expert can post an opinion here that would be great, I don't necessarily condone sending this to be graded though. If a true struck thru capped die error I'm not sure the cost of having it graded would be recouped.  

 

[Woods020]

On 9/4/2021 at 2:03 PM, GBrad said:

Once again, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you just said Woods. I think it is mint error but just not sure which one it would exactly fall under. Getting outside of my lay grade here. If this is a “homemade job”, which I don’t think it is, this would be at the top of the list IMO. However, stuff like this I believe helps us all in the learning process which we all enjoy. I would be interested to see what an error expert would say about this one. 

I’ve got a unique coin I’ve put aside and continuously look at I’ll post later. I’ll need to take some pics. I’m sure it will be PMD, but it’s unique to me and there is an obscure error know to cause it. I just can’t make myself throw it into the cull pile. I’m sure it’s nothing but I can’t fully convince myself yet 😂

[JAnsley]

On 9/3/2021 at 2:46 PM, Rick621 said:

My brother just sent me pictures of two pennies. One appears to be a capped die the other just looks funny. Any input? The second one weights 3.02 gr.

Best answer i got for the first one..

[Rick621]

Finally got my brother to weigh the first penny...3.11 gr.

In reference to the second penny I have taken several coins out of bezels and none have created that kind of damage to the coin.

[Just Bob]

On 9/5/2021 at 6:57 AM, Rick621 said:

 

In reference to the second penny I have taken several coins out of bezels and none have created that kind of damage to the coin.

A coin removed from an encasement - like a "Lucky Penny" holder - will often have an edge like that. Sometime just on one side; sometimes both.

[GBrad]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:57 AM, Rick621 said:

Finally got my brother to weigh the first penny...3.11 gr

Definitely right on the money for the correct weight of a copper Linc. That helps tell me that nothing has been taken away from, or added to, your Cent which is a positive note.