Buy the Coin, Not the Holder... 1 1

[Challenger]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:07 AM, 124Spider said:

I agree, as I said above; AU58, to me, is a nice value point, because the market (in my aesthetic viewpoint) overvalues the mere fact of being "mint state," and undervalues eye appeal.  To me, that's not a bad thing, because I get to buy the coin I like better at a lower price.  Heck, the coin about which I started this thread is a perfect example.  It's a fairly rare coin, especially certified (the only way I would buy the coin, because it is often counterfeited or altered) in higher grades.  And the price increases exponentially above AU53 even into the very low mint state grades (an MS62--without full bands--costs about 3.5 times what an AU53 costs, and I think I got a very strong example of an AU55 at a price significantly below the NGC listed price for that coin at that grade).  So, when I found a beautiful coin, at the very high end of what I was wiling to pay, but one so nice it probably has better eye appeal than the vast majority of those few that exist in the next several higher grades even if I could find one, I bought it.

In any event, it's not as if dealers are forcing that on collectors; coins are a classic non-essential good, and the buyers, in aggregate, decide how much a coin is worth (with a floor, of course, which is a function of the melt value of the coin--not a significant issue for a rare dime like it is with your Saint-Gaudens beauties).  If buyers as a group prefer low mint state to pristine AU, so be it (and, as I said, that really does work for me).

Mark

I am very much of the same mind as you.  I rarely find a coin graded MS 60-63 attractive.  Sure there are some exceptions, but generally I can find high AU coins that are lovely to look at and are priced lower.  Once you get to MS 64, then see support for the higher prices. In some series, coins across grades F to XF are also very easy on the eyes.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:49 AM, Challenger said:

I am very much of the same mind as you.  I rarely find a coin graded MS 60-63 attractive.  Sure there are some exceptions, but generally I can find high AU coins that are lovely to look at and are priced lower.  Once you get to MS 64, then see support for the higher prices. In some series, coins across grades F to XF are also very easy on the eyes.

Yet....with the exception of an occasional smaller coin from decades ago....I am unaware of AU-58's being priced HIGHER than their low-60's counterparts.  Though there is definitely a bid underneath the price at AU-58 which makes the price dropoff less severe than one wouuld expect.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/23/2021 at 10:27 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yet....with the exception of an occasional smaller coin from decades ago....I am unaware of AU-58's being priced HIGHER than their low-60's counterparts.  Though there is definitely a bid underneath the price at AU-58 which makes the price dropoff less severe than one wouuld expect.

I see quite a few nice AU58 coins that bring more than 60 and 61 (and sometimes even 62) money. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 12:32 PM, MarkFeld said:

I see quite a few nice AU58 coins that bring more than 60 and 61 (and sometimes even 62) money. 

Really ?  What coins, Mark ? 

I haven't seen that situation with Saints or Morgans, the 2 series I follow pretty closely.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/23/2021 at 12:06 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  What coins, Mark ? 

I haven't seen that situation with Saints or Morgans, the 2 series I follow pretty closely.

The phenomenon isn't limited to just a few types. Often, an AU58 coin can be more (if not far more) appealing than a low grade unc. piece. The latter often gets its low mint state grade, due to lots of marks and/or other problems, which a nice 58 wont exhibit. 

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 10:46 AM, MarkFeld said:

The phenomenon isn't limited to just a few types. Often, an AU58 coin can be more (if not far more) appealing than a low grade unc. piece. The latter often gets its low mint state grade, due to lots of marks and/or other problems, which a nice 58 wont exhibit. 

GoldFinger and I both agree with your opinion about appeal, but we both find that low mint state coins consistently are priced significantly higher than AU58 coins, even when the low mint state coin is kind of ugly.  I have enjoyed buying AU58 coins on many occasions (especially Morgan and Peace dollars), finding AU58 consistently priced below less appealing MS60-MS62 coins.  

[zadok]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:05 PM, 124Spider said:

GoldFinger and I both agree with your opinion about appeal, but we both find that low mint state coins consistently are priced significantly higher than AU58 coins, even when the low mint state coin is kind of ugly.  I have enjoyed buying AU58 coins on many occasions (especially Morgan and Peace dollars), finding AU58 consistently priced below less appealing MS60-MS62 coins.  

priced does not mean they sell....

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 11:24 AM, zadok said:

priced does not mean they sell....

Sure; but a retailer who keeps overpriced inventory overpriced isn't going to last long.  When so many retailers seem to do the same thing (e.g., price an MS60 coin higher than an AU58 coin), I'm inclined to believe that it's a pretty common practice, and that the coins sell.

 

[zadok]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:31 PM, 124Spider said:

Sure; but a retailer who keeps overpriced inventory overpriced isn't going to last long.  When so many retailers seem to do the same thing (e.g., price an MS60 coin higher than an AU58 coin), I'm inclined to believe that it's a pretty common practice, and that the coins sell.

 

not my experience at all...i see better date ms60-61 coins in inventory over n over again while choice au58 coins same dates sell almost as fast as made available n often at premiums above the ms coins....personally i have a high % of au58 coins in my collections n no ms60 coins at all....there r reasons they grade ms 60 n none r good....

[MarkFeld]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:05 PM, 124Spider said:

GoldFinger and I both agree with your opinion about appeal, but we both find that low mint state coins consistently are priced significantly higher than AU58 coins, even when the low mint state coin is kind of ugly.  I have enjoyed buying AU58 coins on many occasions (especially Morgan and Peace dollars), finding AU58 consistently priced below less appealing MS60-MS62 coins.  

Then your experience is different from mine. My guess is that I see a lot more coins than the two of you do. But that doesn't really matter, as long as you can get the coins you like at prices you're happy with, 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:46 PM, MarkFeld said:

The phenomenon isn't limited to just a few types. Often, an AU58 coin can be more (if not far more) appealing than a low grade unc. piece. The latter often gets its low mint state grade, due to lots of marks and/or other problems, which a nice 58 wont exhibit. 

Would anyone agree that minus a suggestion of an appearace of barely discernable, questionable wear, quite a few AU-58's miss enjoying Mint State status?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:05 PM, 124Spider said:

GoldFinger and I both agree with your opinion about appeal, but we both find that low mint state coins consistently are priced significantly higher than AU58 coins, even when the low mint state coin is kind of ugly.  I have enjoyed buying AU58 coins on many occasions (especially Morgan and Peace dollars), finding AU58 consistently priced below less appealing MS60-MS62 coins.  

It could be smaller coins from other series -- Liberty Seateds, Walkers, Pennies, Nickles, Dimes, etc. -- which are more dependent on a 5x loupe for grading purposes.

With Saints and Morgans, the fields are pretty big that you can see pretty much how they look.

It really depends on the coin.....the relative size of the devices and fields.....how high the relief is....etc.

I am sure Mark is correct with some AU58's selling for more than low-60's coins, they are just in coin types I don't follow and am unfamiliar with.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:15 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Would anyone agree that minus a suggestion of an appearace of barely discernable, questionable wear, quite a few AU-58's miss enjoying Mint State status?

I guess it would depend on if the coins would grade MS-62 or MS-64.  And what is the population distribution in the mint states.....does the coin get ultra-rare at MS-64 ?  If so, then an MS-62 or MS-63 could be super valuable.  OTOH, if it's like a generic Saint or Morgan with availability up to MS-67, grade (and price) might not matter that much moving from AU58 to low-60's.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:12 PM, MarkFeld said:

Then your experience is different from mine. My guess is that I see a lot more coins than the two of you do. But that doesn't really matter, as long as you can get the coins you like at prices you're happy with, 

Off the top of your head, Mark....what coin types do you recall seeing the AU58's sell for above low-60's coins....or even just a tiny discount ? 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:36 PM, zadok said:

not my experience at all...i see better date ms60-61 coins in inventory over n over again while choice au58 coins same dates sell almost as fast as made available n often at premiums above the ms coins....personally i have a high % of au58 coins in my collections n no ms60 coins at all....there r reasons they grade ms 60 n none r good....

What coins are you seeing all these AU58's above MS60 ?

Myself, I haven't even seen that many MS60's....more MS60-62.

[zadok]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It could be smaller coins from other series -- Liberty Seateds, Walkers, Pennies, Nickles, Dimes, etc. -- which are more dependent on a 5x loupe for grading purposes.

With Saints and Morgans, the fields are pretty big that you can see pretty much how they look.

It really depends on the coin.....the relative size of the devices and fields.....how high the relief is....etc.

I am sure Mark is correct with some AU58's selling for more than low-60's coins, they are just in coin types I don't follow and am unfamiliar with.

a ms60 morgan or saint has the same issues as a smaller denomination coin....the reasons for the 60 r detracting, if anything the larger heavier coin will have more detracting issues n more area to show them.....

[124Spider]

I have tried to make it clear that I am not an expert, or even a long-time, serious collector.  But I have spent a great deal of time in the last year prospecting for coins all over the internet, and I am very certain that I routinely see AU58 for less than any MS coin (usually significantly less), throughout the series that I collect (Lincoln cents; buffalo nickels; Jefferson nickels; Mercury dimes; Roosevelt dimes; standing Liberty quarters; Washington quarters; walking Liberty half dollars; Morgan dollars, and Peace dollars).

[zadok]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What coins are you seeing all these AU58's above MS60 ?

Myself, I haven't even seen that many MS60's....more MS60-62.

in virtually all series....the only possible exceptions mite be earlier colonial coins n the super rare early coppers where some dates in mint state r unique or nearly so....

[VKurtB]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:24 PM, zadok said:

priced does not mean they sell....

 

On 8/23/2021 at 2:15 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Would anyone agree that minus a suggestion of an appearace of barely discernable, questionable wear, quite a few AU-58's miss enjoying Mint State status?

I PREFER the modal AU58 coin to almost ALL MS60 and MS62 coins of the same date and type, and I back that up with my bidding de¢i$ions.

[MarkFeld]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Off the top of your head, Mark....what coin types do you recall seeing the AU58's sell for above low-60's coins....or even just a tiny discount ? 

Pretty much any series, if the AU58 is a nice example and there’s not typically a huge value spread between between 58 and MS60-62. Keep in mind that in a given month, I typically see a lot of coins in most series.

Edited August 23, 2021 by MarkFeld

[124Spider]

I just looked through the NGC price guide for the old series which I collect: Lincoln cents, buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, standing Liberty quarters, walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan dollars and Peace dollars; I found exactly one coin for which MS60 had a lower price than AU58, and every other coin had the MS60 with a higher value (often much higher) than the AU58.  This comports with my experience exactly (which is why I own lots of AU58 coins, and very few MS60-62)..

Edited August 23, 2021 by 124Spider

[MarkFeld]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:12 PM, 124Spider said:

I just looked through the NGC price guide for the old series which I collect: Lincoln cents, buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, standing Liberty quarters, walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan dollars and Peace dollars; I found exactly one coin for which MS60 had a lower price than AU58, and every other coin had the MS60 with a higher value (often much higher) than the AU58.  This comports with my experience exactly (which is why I own lots of AU58 coins, and very few MS60-62)..

My comments have been based upon actual transactions (during the course of 40+ years in the business,) not price guide prices. I feel like we’re going round and round on this subject, so will step off of the merry-go-round. 

[Henri Charriere]

[Unsolicited editorial comment]:

Someday, preferably before rigor mortis sets in, I would like to chime in on this somewhat derogatory tune: "Buy the coin, etc.

I am in New York City. To my admittedly limited knowledge, I must depend on experts with experience relying on what that are able to see in an encapsulated coin. One, upon confidently taking possession after bestowing a bribe, wrote me, "She is beautiful," the assumption being her reference was to the obv-  verse of an NGC MS-67 graded Rooster. I wired her for that coin, and three others, sight unseen. I never saw her, spoke to her or her coin emporium -- in fact, in her haste, she neglected to give me an order number, etc. proceeding strictly on faith. Upon receipt, I beheld  something I had never set eyes upon -- near perfection, with none graded finer. Granted, I had to cross-grade it because all my top-tier coins reside in my PCGS Set Registry.

I understand my revered colleague's admonition, @Coinbuf, but unfortunately demand provided by the likes of me, greatly outstrips supply. If my gem lies in an encapsulation, there is a simple procedure one can utilize to achieve uniformity. I am not risk-averse. If it does not measure up, all I have to do is my darndest to make sure our resident critic, @VKurtB doesn't get wind of it.  Easy-peasy.

Would he have done what I did?  Not on your life!)

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:54 PM, MarkFeld said:

My comments have been based upon actual transactions (during the course of 40+ years in the business,) not price guide prices. I feel like we’re going round and round on this subject, so will step off of the merry-go-round. 

It was not my intention to assert that you are wrong; sorry if it came across that way.  My intention was to provide objective evidence backing up my subjective impression that I almost never see an AU58 version of a coin priced higher than an MS60-62 version of the same coin by the same vendor; citing the NGC price guide, which I assume is based on lots of data, was meant to assert merely that my subjective impression is not any less valid than yours.   

Edited August 24, 2021 by 124Spider

[Henri Charriere]

Now hold-on wait-a-mi-nute...

Are we talking about two coins, virtually look-alikes, same denominations, displayed in close proximity to each other -- possibly even in the same display case -- and encapsulated by the same TPGS?   🤔

Edited August 24, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Clarity

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 5:12 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Unsolicited editorial comment]:

Someday, preferably before rigor mortis sets in, I would like to chime in on this somewhat derogatory tune: "Buy the coin, etc.

I am in New York City. To my admittedly limited knowledge, I must depend on experts with experience relying on what that are able to see in an encapsulated coin. One, upon confidently taking possession after bestowing a bribe, wrote me, "She is beautiful," the assumption being her reference was to the obv-  verse of an NGC MS-67 graded Rooster. I wired her for that coin, and three others, sight unseen. I never saw her, spoke to her or her coin emporium -- in fact, in her haste, she neglected to give me an order number, etc. proceeding strictly on faith. Upon receipt, I beheld  something I had never set eyes upon -- near perfection, with none graded finer. Granted, I had to cross-grade it because all my top-tier coins reside in my PCGS Set Registry.

I understand my revered colleague's admonition, @Coinbuf, but unfortunately demand provided by the likes of me, greatly outstrips supply. If my gem lies in an encapsulation, there is a simple procedure one can utilize to achieve uniformity. I am not risk-averse. If it does not measure up, all I have to do is my darndest to make sure our resident critic, @VKurtB doesn't get wind of it.  Easy-peasy.

Would he have done what I did?  Not on your life!)

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like you play at the very pointy-end of the bell-shaped curve of price/quality, where I never tread with any significant coin.  When you're buying a rare coin literally at the top of the grading scale for that coin, the grading has (i) been done by PCGS (or NGC), and (ii) the entire scale of the transaction (and the quality of the vendor with whom you are dealing)  is such that you probably feel pretty confident that you're going to get what you paid for, sight unseen.  That's great, and perhaps "Buy the coin, not the holder" does not have any applicability for such a transaction.

I, on the other hand, own only 32 certified coins, out of well over 2000 coins in my collections (and those are recent additions to the collections).  When I venture into the deep water (which, for me, is anything above around $300, and only rarely even involves a mint state coin), seeing good photos of the coin before I write a large (to me) check (especially given that I care more about subjective appearance than about the grade) is very important to me.  Heck, after enough disappointments with optimistically-graded coins on which I spent $50 or so, I'm reluctant to buy any significant coin without good photos.

I have great awe and respect for people with the means and desire to buy the very best of the very best coins.  But I think it's fair to say that most collectors are snagging a $10 Mercury dime from an online vendor, not bidding for that 1909-S VDB at MS67RD, and most of us want to know, when we venture a bit into the deep water, exactly what that coin looks like before we buy it.

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 5:32 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Now hold-on wait-a-mi-nute...

Are we talking about two coins, virtually look-alikes, same denominations, displayed in close proximity to each other -- possibly even in the same display case -- and encapsulated by the same TPGS?   🤔

This has become a bit far-reaching, which is fun, but I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I started this thread, after finding that the photos of a Mercury dime I was looking at for possible purchase graded by NGC at AU50 showed a coin (both obverse and reverse) that was, at best, comparable to a very similar coin I own that was graded by NGC at XF40 (and clearly inferior to two other Mercury dimes I own graded by NGC at XF45 and AU53).  So, no, I wasn't able to look at them next to each other.  But I was able to compare high-resolution photos of both.

Does this answer your question?

Mark

Edited August 24, 2021 by 124Spider

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:56 PM, 124Spider said:

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like you play at the very pointy-end of the bell-shaped curve of price/quality, where I never tread with any significant coin.  When you're buying a rare coin literally at the top of the grading scale for that coin, the grading has (i) been done by PCGS (or NGC), and (ii) the entire scale of the transaction (and the quality of the vendor with whom you are dealing)  is such that you probably feel pretty confident that you're going to get what you paid for, sight unseen.  That's great, and perhaps "Buy the coin, not the holder" does not have any applicability for such a transaction.

I, on the other hand, own only 32 certified coins, out of well over 2000 coins in my collections (and those are recent additions to the collections).  When I venture into the deep water (which, for me, is anything above around $300, and only rarely even involves a mint state coin), seeing good photos of the coin before I write a large (to me) check (especially given that I care more about subjective appearance than about the grade) is very important to me.  Heck, after enough disappointments with optimistically-graded coins on which I spent $50 or so, I'm reluctant to buy any significant coin without good photos.

I have great awe and respect for people with the means and desire to buy the very best of the very best coins.  But I think it's fair to say that most collectors are snagging a $10 Mercury dime from an online vendor, not bidding for that 1909-S VDB at MS67RD, and most of us want to know, when we venture a bit into the deep water, exactly what that coin looks like before we buy it.

 

On 8/23/2021 at 9:00 PM, 124Spider said:

This has become a bit far-reaching, which is fun, but I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I started this thread, after finding that the photos of a Mercury dime I was looking at for possible purchase graded by NGC at AU50 showed a coin (both obverse and reverse) that was, at best, comparable to a very similar coin I own that was graded by NGC at XF40 (and clearly inferior to two other Mercury dimes I own graded by NGC at XF45 and AU53).  So, no, I wasn't able to look at them next to each other.  But I was able to compare high-resolution photos of both.

Does this answer your question?

Mark

Yes. The VKurtB school of thought requires in-your-hand inspection which virtually guarantees never having to say you're sorry.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:56 PM, 124Spider said:

I'm guessing here, but it sounds like you play at the very pointy-end of the bell-shaped curve of price/quality, where I never tread with any significant coin.  When you're buying a rare coin literally at the top of the grading scale for that coin, the grading has (i) been done by PCGS (or NGC), and (ii) the entire scale of the transaction (and the quality of the vendor with whom you are dealing)  is such that you probably feel pretty confident that you're going to get what you paid for, sight unseen.  That's great, and perhaps "Buy the coin, not the holder" does not have any applicability for such a transaction.

I, on the other hand, own only 32 certified coins, out of well over 2000 coins in my collections (and those are recent additions to the collections).  When I venture into the deep water (which, for me, is anything above around $300, and only rarely even involves a mint state coin), seeing good photos of the coin before I write a large (to me) check (especially given that I care more about subjective appearance than about the grade) is very important to me.  Heck, after enough disappointments with optimistically-graded coins on which I spent $50 or so, I'm reluctant to buy any significant coin without good photos.

I have great awe and respect for people with the means and desire to buy the very best of the very best coins.  But I think it's fair to say that most collectors are snagging a $10 Mercury dime from an online vendor, not bidding for that 1909-S VDB at MS67RD, and most of us want to know, when we venture a bit into the deep water, exactly what that coin looks like before we buy it.

You are a very responsible, cautious collector.  The prevailing melt value of a Rooster is above $300.  Get a load of this:  I have never seen any buyer, never spoken to any buyer, never actually seen a Rooster unpixelated. I used my wife's phone and pressed SEND or sent a bank wire (once to Serbia) again, an individual I never met or spoke to -- and only found out much much later that FREE delivery in a landlocked country invariably means over-the-road travel, transfer to an unnamed tramp steamer, and eventual delivery. The raw coin I received, beyond an eBay photo representation and Western Union transmittal, ultimately was graded MS-65 (1903) and there was only one other like it, with none graded higher.  I believe the actual retail price I paid was $289.+ a very minor fee. Clearly, the seller, did not appreciate the significance of what he had, and neither did I.

[124Spider]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:18 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

You are a very responsible, cautious collector.  The prevailing melt value of a Rooster is above $300.  Get a load of this:  I have never seen any buyer, never spoken to any buyer, never actually seen a Rooster unpixelated. I used my wife's phone and pressed SEND or sent a bank wire (once to Serbia) again, an individual I never met or spoke to -- and only found out much much later that FREE delivery in a landlocked country invariably means over-the-road travel, transfer to an unnamed tramp steamer, and eventual delivery. The raw coin I received, beyond an eBay photo representation and Western Union transmittal, ultimately was graded MS-65 (1903) and there was only one other like it, with none graded higher.  I believe the actual retail price I paid was $289.+ a very minor fee. Clearly, the seller, did not appreciate the significance of what he had, and neither did I.

Cool; great story!

I'm not a risk-taker; yes, I understand that one has to risk something significant to get significant gains, but I'm not looking for anything but having fun, and to get fair value for my money.

Enjoy your game (as you obviously are).  I am quite happy to plod along as a "responsible, cautious collector." 

Mark