Submission FAILURE. NGC is turning sour 1 1

[Joejingojack]

Hello NGC,

This thread is in regards to "SD' Private Collection".
I own a very rare Chinese coin collection.
My coin collection is 100% GENUINE and you blatantly marked them as 'NOT GENUINE'.
You just lost my trust from these money-laundering tactics for insiders that you are involved in. This is inside corruption and is in fact very illegal.

Photos:
https://ngc3-my.sharepoint.com/:f:/g/personal/dplasencia_ngccoin_com/EsBNljajtHxOp5cygJ8ViMUBRr-fnR7Uvg7QxxrajQOPKA?e=sIYw92

Submission Numbers Below:
2112605-001
2112605-002
2112605-003
2112605-004

I want my coins reexamined as well as graded or I will have to share my terrible experiences with everyone.
Please don't be in team with PCGS, they already have bad reputation and the inside corruption that is currently going on has lost trust of many others, not just people in the coin collection business.

Regards

[l.cutler]

Can you elaborate a little.  Where did you acquire the coins?  How are you sure they are genuine?  What is your background in collecting these coins?

[Joejingojack]

13 minutes ago, l.cutler said:

Can you elaborate a little.  Where did you acquire the coins?  How are you sure they are genuine?  What is your background in collecting these coins?

I started coin collecting 40 years ago.

I've turned my father's hobby into a profession.

My background is high enough to determine that and the statement that I made.

[Moxie15]

Well if what you say is true then you are more than experienced enough to know what you are doing is absolute garbage. 

If you choose to act like a spoiled 10 year old girl instead of a responsible adult business owner than I, for one, have no time or sympathy for you.

[Fenntucky Mike]

5 hours ago, Joejingojack said:

Please don't be in team with PCGS,

Were these declared "Not Genuine" by PCGS as well?

Got to say that's a pretty good turnaround time for the current backlog. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Fenntucky Mike
spelling

[Hoghead515]

They have several graders in the grading room. What's the chances of all of them determing that all 4 coins were not genuine. And if PCGS said the same thing which he did not specify. Don't sound good. Sounds like I'd be getting a hold of the ones who sold them to me instead of bashing a room full of experts who look at them everyday for a living. 

[Joejingojack]

I haven't been in touch with PCGS at all because I know they're bought and paid for from collector friends and that is for sure.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Joejingojack

[GoldFinger1969]

18 minutes ago, Joejingojack said:

I haven't been in touch with PCGS at all because I know they're bought and paid for from collector friends and that is for sure.

If the coins are genuine, contact someone at NGC (or PCGS) and state your case.  Don't lash out.....be respectful, responsible, and put your arguments on paper (or in an e-mail) and ask for a response.

[GoldFinger1969]

5 hours ago, Joejingojack said:

I started coin collecting 40 years ago.  I've turned my father's hobby into a profession. My background is high enough to determine that and the statement that I made.

Really ?  And you've never made a mistake in your life, I take it ?

You accuse the TPGs of "insider trading" and fraud....without any proof.  You accuse them of money laundering and inside corruption and you state that it is very illegal.  Which is true...except you have NO PROOF that they have engaged in any of that.  Then you follow that up with a threat to go public.

Settle down...state your case....and keep US informed, too.  Maybe the TPGs did make an honest mistake in which case I am sure they will be happy to correct it.

You state that you have made this a profession....then you must know that the TPGs reputation is built on honesty.  They are not a couple of guys working out of Nigeria.

[GoldFinger1969]

How much do you figure the coins are worth, JoeJingoJack ?

[numisport]

I think your claims and demands sound childlike and how would you expect NGC to respond to extorsion style threats you throw about ? 

My response would be a request that they look at your coins again, not a demand. I recommend you rethink your somewhat shallow statements and try again if you wish.

[RWB]

The OP's opinion disagrees with NGC's opinion. Nothing out of line, although NGC has examined and tested many more coins than the OP or any other dealer/collector. The option of sending the coins to PCGS - possibly their Hong Kong office - was presented and rejected out of hand. Absent the OP having some Coin Deity in mind to resolve the differences in opinion, what are the alternatives?

PS: The submission was not a failure. The OP received everything as agreed.

Edited April 18, 2021 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

57 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How much do you figure the coins are worth, JoeJingoJack ?

When I saw which coins they were based on the one photo of an authenticated example -- my heart sank.  They are identical to the coins I bought in New York's Chinatown -- only one of which was real which may have been sold to me accidentally -- for one dollar each.

There is no vendetta or agenda at a TPGS.  They are too busy with the business of moving things along expeditiously.

I never expected the "dollars" I bought to be real. I just like carrying around large, heavy coins.  Examine your coins closely.  The details are muddy.  The reeding is worn. When I asked the Chinese merchant if they were silver, or how old they were, she feigned ignorance.  All she would say is:  Won-dollah! Won-dollah!

Why not post a few photos here and allow the membership here to have a say.  One more thing... when you drop it on a table counter or tile from a few inches (anything harder may result in damage) listen to the bell-like ring it should make and how long it takes to lie flat. Almost like a copper cent vs. a clad. Use a silver dollar as a model. I have ten of the coins pictured a few posts up by Fenntucky. Save for the genuine one validated by Stacks, which the gentleman singled out immediately on silver content alone.  Do yourself a favor; you deserve a second, informed opinion, submit it in a photo for our examination, edge and all -- and it will be offered here free of charge!

[RonnieR131]

Where's JKK. A pretty good Chinese coin evaluator, although he's not really needed. He has a gentle way of saying you spooned up. Good luck Joejingojack, you never  know.

[Fenntucky Mike]

You asked for an opinion and you got one, right or wrong. All I know is that these coins, the dollars more so, are some of the most counterfeited Chinese coins out there and it is supposedly very difficult to tell the real deal from a fake sometimes. If you disagree you can send them back to NGC to be reevaluated, for a fee, or send them to PCGS. I don't know if there is a website, company or individual who specializes in these coins but if you're done with TPGs I'd start looking. Dragondollars.com maybe? 

[RWB]

Authentic on left. OPs item on right. Compare relative positions of design elements, particularly inscription; note puffyness of OPs item compared to an authentic coin. Die crack missing from OPs item; scales different. Literally dozens, scores; pecks, bushels, barrels of differences.

Edited April 18, 2021 by RWB

[Hoghead515]

21 minutes ago, RWB said:

Authentic on left. OPs item on right. Compare relative positions of design elements, particularly inscription; note puffyness of OPs item compared to an authentic coin. Die crack missing from OPs item.

If you look real close you can see a big difference in certain areas of it. Especially in the little island looking things that encircle the dragon. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Hoghead515

[Just Bob]

OP, what are the weights of your coins?

Edited April 18, 2021 by Just Bob

[Joejingojack]

3 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

OP, what are the weights of your coins?

Regarding my coin collection, the weights are as accurate as everything else is, as it should be. It in the 13 gr range.

[GoldFinger1969]

8 minutes ago, Joejingojack said:

Regarding my coin collection, the weights are as accurate as everything else is, as it should be. It in the 13 gr range.

Check out RWB's pics above.  If you are an expert like you claim, the discrepancies should jump out at you.

[Hoghead515]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Check out RWB's pics above.  If you are an expert like you claim, the discrepancies should jump out at you.

I see some very big differences 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 minute ago, Hoghead515 said:

I see some very big differences 

I don't but I'm totally unfamiliar with these coins and didn't want to spend too much time trying to match up Roger's info with the 2 pics.

But focusing on weight is always a problem because that's the easiest thing to copy.

[Hoghead515]

Counterfeiters are getting good anymore. They are getting the weights right on several different coins. You can see big differences in the designs if you compare the 2 closely side by side. 

[Hoghead515]

Spoiler

 

On the right side of the coin to the right of the dragons hand. Look at the little blob looking thing at the difference in the two. That's just one. There are several all over it.  And the blob below it. Ones alot longer than the other. Same blob. Ones wider. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Hoghead515

[Hoghead515]

Don't know what kind of content I hid in the post above. My fat fingers hitting buttons. Don't know what I did. But theres differences in the spikes on the dragons to. Some are pointy on one and the same ones round on the other. And vice versa. Some of the blobs are bigger on one than the other. There are several if you look at it long enough. I'd find the person who sold them to me and get my money back. The guys in the grading room know they're stuff. They deal with coins everyday and got their eyes trained to spot counterfeits. 

[GoldFinger1969]

13 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Counterfeiters are getting good anymore. They are getting the weights right on several different coins. You can see big differences in the designs if you compare the 2 closely side by side. 

I'll look again more closely, thanks for the tips. 

It's another reason why unless you really are good at the coins you collect, buy the graded/certified coins, especially when Big $$$ are involved.

[Hoghead515]

On the left side of the coin. The dragons other hand is touching one of the blobs. And look how far away it is on the other coin. The 2 blobs are bout touching on one coin in that same spot. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Hoghead515

[Henri Charriere]

This might be a bit of a stretch, but with anti-Asian sentiment running high, maybe the best person to to consult is a numismatist [in this case] of Chinese descent or one whose specialty is coins from China.

It's too bad you don't live in New York.  You could visit a reputable dealer like Stack's, place your coins in one of their velvet-lined boxes, tell the gentleman behind the counter you are interested in selling, and inside of a minute get an entire dissertation on exactly what it is you have and what it is worth. And if you don't like what you hear, Heritage Auctions and Brigandi are only a block or two away. (I have no option because the coins that were sold to me were never represented as being real or anything other than souvenirs.)

I sense you've spent serious money for these, exclusive of certification costs, and, whether purchased or inherited, no one likes to be told what was left to them by a family member is inauthentic. By the way, rightly or wrongly, there simply isn't enough time for graders to write a dissertation on why the coin(s) they have examined are not genuine. The money you remit buys you either an opinion (to grade) or a refusal (to grade).

You've been doing this for decades.  If I were you, I would send your coins to an auction house with instructions they be sold, then sit back, and see what happens.

[Hoghead515]

I can see a tremendous difference in it and the authentic one without having to take it to an expert. Some crook got him on it. I feel bad for him. Sad all these crooks out there trying to rip a person off on every corner. Then out all the money sending them in. That is awful. Just an expensive lesson if you gonna buy very expensive coins to compare them very carefully to genuine examples. I spotted about 30 differences between the 2 coins above. The blobs are mostly all longer and larger on the counterfeit. And smaller on the authentic example. The longer you sit and look at it the more you can spot. My feelings go out to the guy. I'd be very mad. I'd go get my money back off the person who sold them to me. I'm mad they done him that way. I'm fed up with these crooks myself. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Well, he said he has been doing this for 40 years and is an expert on the coins:

"I started coin collecting 40 years ago. I've turned my father's hobby into a profession.  My background is high enough to determine that and the statement that I made."

Maybe he's an expert on other coins, but if he focused on these coins, he would have realized long ago there was a problem.