1854 kellogg & Co double eagle 0

[Deerhunter1599]

I have what I believe is a real 1854 kellogg & co coin. I submitted this coin to pcgs for authenticating and was told by them it’s a counterfeit. The piece I submitted had been previously authenticated by Ray Burns Ltd. and show many pedigree signs of a non counterfeit piece. A left lean in the 4 along with a lamination across her face and a planchette flake on star 5, with a missing center shaft arrow on the reverse tell me this is coin came from the K1a die type. I believe the coin came from a catalog auction on April 29, 1924. As its a plated piece, witch is illustrated in the catalog. I believe it’s 1 of 178 Special struck coins that survived the meting process of the Philadelphia mint. My concern is pcgs is trying to pull a fast one on this coin and possibly trying to keep it Or swoop it. I’m woundering if NGC can step in and help me? This would make a great illustration article and show people why they should choose NGC over PCGS. Ive been in communication on this piece since oct and not sure what else to do. I’m a afraid to have them mail it back as they might claim it got lost or they may swoop it. The coin is in proof like condition with a mirror like reflection and prolly worth closer to the 6 or 7 digits as a special strike coin. If I can get someone higher up to help me pursue this matter with pcgs I would love to have NGC feature this coin and help me sell it. According to the census Ngc has never graded a 1854 kellogg & co double eagle and it would be its first.

 

[DWLange]

It's a modern fake of crude manufacture.

[Deerhunter1599]

I feel like this is a territorial gold coin. Possibly pattern piece. Being the coin matches the k-1a type to a tee I can’t possibly see this coin being a fake, if it were a fake it wouldn’t match the kagin so perfectly

[DWLange]

If you submit it to NGC you'll be paying to get information you've already been given for free.

[Woods020]

One piece of information for the OP that may be useful is that this appears to be a cast piece. It could have been cast from a mold of the variety you mention. Then it would take on some of the characteristics of the original variety albeit crudely.

[Deerhunter1599]

Kellogg co double eagles were made to look exactly like coins from the mint. Since they were manufactured differently, they do look slightly different and have more of a cast look to them. These coins were often found with light abrasions on them.  For a coin that was suppose to resemble that of a mint produced one 170 years ago, they did a decent job. The coins were usually crudely put together and had various purity’s and were basically just glorified ingots used in place of coins since they were scarce at the time. Most kellogg co coins were collected up by the mint after it opened In 1854 and melted down and turn into mint produced pieces that meet actual coin standards set in place by the mint. Since coinage was scarce and there were various imperfections in territorial pieces at the time, not to mention not many people could afford to tie up 20 bucks that long, the mint ended up with majority of them and melting them down to turn into mint produced pieces. If you look up the specs on this coin on ngc or pcgs you’ll see they don’t display the dimensions such as weight, metal, purity, diameter and edge. This is because they were different than mint produced pieces and often times varied from coin to coin. 

[Deerhunter1599]

[Just Bob]

You can try to explain, reason, justify, and convince from now until doomsday, but it will never make this piece into something it is not.

I understand the need to feel as though you have found something special. And, once you have convinced yourself that your "coin" is a genuine rarity, it is almost impossible for your mind to be changed. But, several different knowledgeable people, (and a few actual experts, who have handled genuine examples of these), have informed you of what you really have. 

Kellogg & Co. was a respected manufacturer - even receiving the endorsement of Augustus Humbert - and, I believe, would never have released a piece of this inferior quality. I can guarantee you that they would not have released a coin containing half the proper amount of gold, which, in another post, you said your coin has.

Carefully, and without bias, compare your piece with pictures of genuine pieces. Pay particular attention to the hair detail on the obverse. That, in itself, should be enough to convince you that this is not a real coin.

As for your dispute with PCGS, you need to pay them for their opinion and be done with it, in my opinion. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 3/17/2021 at 8:00 PM, Deerhunter1599 said:

help me pursue this matter with pcgs

PCGS had their turn.  No one here at 'Sleepy Hollow' has the pull to get PCGS to change their opinion.  Send it to NGC and please let us in on what NGC says.

Where do people come up with this minutiae?    

Edited March 26, 2021 by Alex in PA.

[l.cutler]

Send it to NGC.  When they say it is fake, send it to ANACS.  When ANACS says it is fake then try ICG. When ICG says it is fake.....  Seriously, it is time to face reality, your coin is fake and to be honest not even a very good one.  I hope you didn't pay too much, but write it off as a lesson learned or go back to the seller and try to get your money back.

[DWLange]

Send it to NGC and please let us in on what NGC says.

I already expressed above what NGC would say. This is a dead-end discussion.

[Coincollecting2021]

Even though this is an old post, but I guess through your numerous posting that you truly believe this piece is genuine.

Let me give my own opinion, this is a modern fake! Modern fake can have 9k gold, sending it to any major grading services is a waste of moneys and times.

All the so called evidences that you had given does not stand any ground. First you said that this piece is authenticated by Ray Burns Ltd, this is only known through a sticker on the holder. The sticker can be altered or the coin that was originally housed in the holder was removed and replace with this forgery. Second you said that this coin matched genuine variety, for me I see no matching(Remember all fake intention is to match genuine piece!). Third you said that this piece was pervious auctioned, for me the only similarity between this piece and the pictured one is that the date and design is the same. Finally you made many "explanations" to defend your view when others questioned the coin(the fineness, color, weird bumps).  I think the biggest part you need to know is you have not truly know what a genuine piece look like. If you have seen a genuine piece in person you would know its a fake on the spot.

With all your research, I know you truly believe this piece is genuine and want others to confirmed it. But this piece is the same as thousands of 1804 dollar and 1913 nickel, they are all fake. No matter how many research is done on them, they will still be fakes.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Coincollecting2021

[Deerhunter1599]

I believe the piece is an expirmental piece made some time between January-febuary in 1854. The coin is composed of copper nickel tin. Common metals used for expirmental pieces of that era. The piece actually fits the description of a pattern piece mentioned in Edgar Adams expirmental and patterns of California 1849-1855. Under the section of Kellogg Co  #94 fits the coins descriptions

 

 

[Deerhunter1599]

Since the piece was composed of cheap metals, the Parmelee sale were it sold for 1.10 seems fitting. It's says the description isn't enough to tie it to 52, 53, 55, 56  suggesting the piece must of had a gold appearance tho it states it was made of copper. Is current location if unknown. I believe that the piece I have is the stated piece above. The lamination on lady liberty's face give tells me that it came from one of the Kellogg dies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[l.cutler]

On 2/6/2022 at 2:34 AM, Deerhunter1599 said:

Since the piece was composed of cheap metals, the Parmelee sale were it sold for 1.10 seems fitting. It's says the description isn't enough to tie it to 52, 53, 55, 56  suggesting the piece must of had a gold appearance tho it states it was made of copper. Is current location if unknown. I believe that the piece I have is the stated piece above. The lamination on lady liberty's face give tells me that it came from one of the Kellogg dies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It must be nice to know more about coins than the professional graders.