Proof 1854 kellogg & co double eagle 0

[Deerhunter1599]

I sent this coin to pcgs for authenticating and was told it was fake. It’s currently still at pcgs awaiting a Payment. I believe this 1854 kellogg co double eagle is the real deal and pcgs is mistaken. A lamination across her face, along with a slightly left lean in the 4 and a planchette flake on star 5 give me hope in authenticating this coin. On the reverse the middle arrow is slightly missing as well. Doesn’t this match the K1a kagin? Can anyone else agree to this? The coin is in superb shape and has a mirror like surface on both sides. I believe the coin is a special mint piece that came from a catalog auction on April 29, 1924. I believe it’s specimen #77. The coin has been previously authenticated by Ray Burn LTD but PCGS came back saying counterfeit. Not to sure what to do at the moment, Does NGC wanna step in and help me handle this case to show PCGS a thing or two? Any advice would be great at this point. 

[Woods020]

There are some gold experts who will chime in soon, but I’ll tell you it doesn’t look right to me. And I certainly don’t see a mirror finish. I think you will get some opinions that your PCGS grading fee is money well spent. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I'm in camp counterfeit.

MS coin from NGC Coin explorer, for those who are interested.

[Grant Gerlinger]

I’m not quite an expert yet. It doesn’t look right to me. The color looks nothing like any of the gold coins I have. The color is also quite different from many known examples. The stars don’t look correct either. I think PCGS is right, I don’t think they would say a coin is fake without reason.

[Mr.Bill347]

Sir, this coin is as bogus as a three dollar bill. These pictures are of an authentic coin from Ray Burns web page.

here is what jumps out at me

certainly NOT a proof

side of nose bulging

major lettering differences in Kellogg &co.

two arrow shafts vs three.

the stars are odd shapes

the rim is bad

so sorry, but if it was authenticated by Burns he would have stated so on a document.

PCGS is right! Sorry 😞 I’ve been there and done that ONCE!

 

[Just Bob]

I'm sorry, but your coin looks very much like a fake, to me.

[Woods020]

20 minutes ago, Mr.Bill347 said:

Sir, this coin is as bogus as a three dollar bill. These pictures are of an authentic coin from Ray Burns web page.

here is what jumps out at me

certainly NOT a proof

side of nose bulging

major lettering differences in Kellogg &co.

two arrow shafts vs three.

the stars are odd shapes

the rim is bad

so sorry, but if it was authenticated by Burns he would have stated so on a document.

PCGS is right! Sorry 😞 I’ve been there and done that ONCE!

 

This isn’t the coin the OP posted for the record. 

[Deerhunter1599]

This should be a territorial gold piece if I’m not mistaken. Different than the ones produced at the mint. The coin only weighs 15.97 grams. Half the weight of a mint produced Piece. A gold test shows it’s only 12-14k, half the karate it should be. So the weigh is actually fitting for the coin.   Half the gold quality, half the weight. It should be noted that It weighs the same as double sovereign of the same year.  Another hard fact to support it’s a territorial gold piece. I believe the coin was one of 178 specimens minted at the Philadelphia mint. I agree with the color differences tho, im assuming because of the low quality gold. The blue circled items match that of the K1a R.4 die to a tee. The lamination on her face, the left lean in the 4, planchette flake on star 5,  missing center shaft arrow, along with stars placement of stars 3, 4, and 5 on the reverse makes me believe it a real piece. Remember zero double eagles have ever been identified of this year. This coin matches the territorial die to a tee. Most of these coins were thought to have sank to the bottom of the ocean. 

[Deerhunter1599]

[Woods020]

Here is an MS65 of the variety you mention sold on Heritage. I believe if you study it and your coin you will notice some differences. I’ll also list a link to that auction because it gives a very detailed description. 
 

https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/1854-20-kellogg-and-co-ms65-pcgs-cac-short-arrows-k-1a-r4/a/1310-10166.s

[RWB]

Deerhunter1599 –

Evidently you sent the piece to PCGS for their opinion as to authenticity and condition. They determined it is not authentic; they are holding the piece until some sort of payment is made.

You disagree with PCGS’ opinion and state several of your opinions, including:

1.       The coin is in superb shape and has a mirror like surface on both sides.
2.       I believe the coin is a special mint piece that came from a catalog auction on April 29, 1924. I believe it’s specimen #77.
3.       The coin has been previously authenticated by Ray Burn LTD….

Some observations based on the photos in the original message.

1.       The piece has numerous tiny bumps and irregularities, generally consistent with a cast, or a cheap jewelry item. There is no trace of a “mirror surface” on either side.
2.       The piece does not resemble Lot 77 from the auction catalog.
3.     I  If, as stated, the piece was authenticated by Mr. Byrne, you should have his letter of authentication.

Your clear option is to send the piece to NGC for authentication and grading. If they agree with PCGS’ assessment then you have a clear response by the two premier authentication companies. If NGC determines it is authentic, then you have your opinion verified and can proceed accordingly.

The additional comments "I believe the coin was one of 178 specimens minted at the Philadelphia mint," and "Remember zero double eagles have ever been identified of this year," are nonsensical. The Philadelphia Mint - no US Mint - ever produced 12k or 14k coins. For 1854 there are actually two different date sizes - and many examples exist.

Edited March 18, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

USAOG, Moffat, Kellogg, etc. used largely native California gold. The accepted local native gold value was $16 per Troy ounce. The "Numiis Coin Values" it total hokum except for the part about containing no precious metals.

[Deerhunter1599]

The pics being posted are of mint produced double eagle. Territorial gold pieces weren’t produced from the mint. They were produced from a private company because of lacking coinage at the mint in 1854. So yes a territorial Piece looks different than a mint produced pieces. Abrasions and bumps were common among the territorial gold pieces according to the reading I’ve done. I believe the highest graded territorial gold kellogg piece was a ms-62. I will post a pic below so you have a similar one to compare it to. 

[Woods020]

53 minutes ago, Deerhunter1599 said:

The pics being posted are of mint produced double eagle. Territorial gold pieces weren’t produced from the mint. They were produced from a private company because of lacking coinage at the mint in 1854. So yes a territorial Piece looks different than a mint produced pieces. Abrasions and bumps were common among the territorial gold pieces according to the reading I’ve done. I believe the highest graded territorial gold kellogg piece was a ms-62. I will post a pic below so you have a similar one to compare it to. 

At this point your only option is to send it to NGC and get a second opinion. And please come back and tell us what comes of it.

[Woods020]

Also just so you know, the mint doesn’t make a habit of putting Kellogg & Co on its coinage. The example presented from the heritage auction is the finest known 1854 Kellogg piece at MS65. And yes it was a territorial or privately minted piece. As I said if you read the description of the listing it’s informative. Lots of good history in it. 
 

I’m not trying to be a horses rear or to rain on your parade. I actually hope it’s real for you. However it displays a lot of telltale characteristics one would look for to indicate a replica or counterfeit. Maybe we are wrong. NGC can be your impartial retrial jury. 

[RWB]

13 hours ago, Deerhunter1599 said:

This should be a territorial gold piece if I’m not mistaken. Different than the ones produced at the mint. The coin only weighs 15.97 grams. Half the weight of a mint produced Piece. A gold test shows it’s only 12-14k, half the karate it should be. So the weigh is actually fitting for the coin.   Half the gold quality, half the weight. It should be noted that It weighs the same as double sovereign of the same year.  Another hard fact to support it’s a territorial gold piece. I believe the coin was one of 178 specimens minted at the Philadelphia mint. I agree with the color differences tho, im assuming because of the low quality gold. The blue circled items match that of the K1a R.4 die to a tee. The lamination on her face, the left lean in the 4, planchette flake on star 5,  missing center shaft arrow, along with stars placement of stars 3, 4, and 5 on the reverse makes me believe it a real piece. Remember zero double eagles have ever been identified of this year. This coin matches the territorial die to a tee. Most of these coins were thought to have sank to the bottom of the ocean. 

The above quoted post plus the original have me completely confused. If the OP knows the piece is about 0.500 gold and is under weight, then it is not an authentic Kellogg & Co. $20 - they did not make such depreciated pieces. They would have been tarred and feathered if they'd tried to circulate such rubbish.

Since the OP is convinced of his opinion, then send it to NGC for authentication and be done with it.

[Mr.Bill347]

I would send it in to NGC, then you will know for sure. If it is in fact, genuine, You will have earned the increased value, if not, then lesson learned. Deerhunter, you sure have a lot of research on it and that makes me somewhat doubt my opinion some. all THE MORE REASON TO really KNOW.

 

[Deerhunter1599]

When u look at the specs on this coin it often times doesnt give the gold purity because it was never consistent, ngc, nor pcgs show it. A lot of the territorial gold coin produced varied in gold purity until the mint was establish. I find it unlikely that a fake would carry all the same pedigrees to match the specific k-1a type when there’s five to pick from. Fakes often had a straight date or all three arrows visible on the reverse, also no lamination across the check and misshaped stars. The piece was clearly produced from a die produced by the mint. 

[RWB]

Sorry, but the aggregate of material presented by the OP is a confused shredded mess - useless.

Send the piece to NGC for authentication and be done with it.

[Fenntucky Mike]

The general consensus was counterfeit in July, you sent it to PCGS they said counterfeit, posted the coin here a second time and received similar advise as before. I have no doubt that were you to send this to NGC it would come back as NOT genuine. I wouldn't waist anymore time/money trying to convince yourself this coin is authentic and try to get a refund from whomever you purchased it. 

[l.cutler]

Looking back at your previous post on the coin, it appears you have no idea if it was previously authenticated by Ray Burns.  You bought the coin and it just had one of his stickers on the case.

[Just Bob]

All of the research, posting, and wishful thinking in the world will not transform this piece into something it clearly is not. I am sorry, Deerhunter, but it is a fake.

[DWLange]

I responded to a duplicate posting of that coin on the Ask NGC forum with the same conclusion.

[Conder101]

13 hours ago, RWB said:

The above quoted post plus the original have me completely confused. If the OP knows the piece is about 0.500 gold and is under weight, then it is not an authentic Kellogg & Co. $20 - they did not make such depreciated pieces. They would have been tarred and feathered if they'd tried to circulate such rubbish.

Agreed, the weight alone is enough to tell you it's a fake.

 

The comments in the last article posted about varying purity was between coin manufacturers.  And yes you might get a slight variation in fineness between coins from the same manufacturer, but it would be in the range of +/- maybe .005 fineness or so.  No way would it drop to .500 fine.  As Roger said they would be tarred and feathered and NO ONE would accept their coinage.  Besides if you were going to go to all the trouble to make a proof example to show off your workmanship, would you then do it on a half weight half fineness planchet?