What is DL Hansen’s Strategy? 0

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/12/2022 at 6:44 PM, DWLange said:

Eliasberg acquired the greater part of this collection in his single purchase of the Clapp Estate in 1942. A few additional coins were added one or two at a time, but most of what he didn't have from the Clapps (post-1913 issues) were purchased for him by dealers who sold him complete sets of those issues in block purchases. Eliasberg was not a great numismatist, just a wealthy and well connected one.

What % of his late-1970's collection did he get from the Clapp 1942 sale, Dave ?

Also, what was Eliasberg's line of work/business...how did he accumulate his wealth ?

[zadok]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:29 PM, VKurtB said:

Some have now tried to “decorate” a registry set with an attempt to tell a story, to mixed reviews. 

...guess comes down to how good of a story teller one is....

[VKurtB]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:43 AM, zadok said:

...guess comes down to how good of a story teller one is....

All you have to do is read a blank scoring sheet and it becomes painfully (to some) obvious how in numismatic exhibiting, the actual coins account for only about 25% of the score, at most. The information you provide to the viewer is about 50% and the aesthetics are the remaining 25%, roughly speaking. It’s why judges call what they do while judging “reading cases”. Judges are supposed to read every word presented. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 9/13/2022 at 12:17 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What % of his late-1970's collection did he get from the Clapp 1942 sale, Dave ?

Also, what was Eliasberg's line of work/business...how did he accumulate his wealth ?

...i will let DWL expound on ur question in detail but to generalize, Eliasberg was a diversified businessman, an investor if u will, he participated in insurance, mortgages, brewing, pharmaceuticals,real estate, banking, professional sports among other interests...he probably most associated at first with The Finance Company of America n later the Maryland National Bank but was heavily involved in all the other forementioned areas...ur first question bit confusing, there would not be any late 1970's coins from the Clapp collection he bought in 1942??....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/13/2022 at 10:16 AM, zadok said:

ur first question bit confusing, there would not be any late 1970's coins from the Clapp collection he bought in 1942??....

Thanks Zad...no, I meant that I presume he finished his collection by the late-1970's (maybe earlier) since I thought he died in 1981 or 1982.  In fact, he died in 1976.  

So....I would change that inquiry to....what % of his collection by the early-1970's did the Clapp estate comprise ?  In other words, when his collection was finished or pretty much finished.

[zadok]

On 9/13/2022 at 10:25 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Thanks Zad...no, I meant that I presume he finished his collection by the late-1970's (maybe earlier) since I thought he died in 1981 or 1982.  In fact, he died in 1976.  

So....I would change that inquiry to....what % of his collection by the early-1970's did the Clapp estate comprise ?  In other words, when his collection was finished or pretty much finished.

...i believe it was his single largest purchase, the Clapp collection was extensive n very comprehensive as well...perhaps DWL can generalize a % for u....

[DWLange]

Eliasberg ceased acquiring USA coins around 1950, when he finally secured the 1873-CC No Arrows dime. He considered his collection complete at that point. 

As for his career he considered himself primarily a banker, and his collection was stored in the vault of "his" bank.

[World Colonial]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:48 PM, zadok said:

...basically true...however, 99% of the participants on this forum most likely collect those series u r referring to as common n easy to assemble, the flies in the ointment of ur hypothesis is they dont have Hansen money n they r not just filling holes, many if not most r attempting to complete sets that exhibit uniformity, average grades, comparable appearances etc...therein lies the obstacles n creates the challenges that make this hobby interesting...

I was trying to point out that attempting to collect legitimately scarce but low to moderately priced coinage the same way most collectors buy US coinage isn't workable.

I am aware that no collector would ever choose to complete any series (other than maybe bullion) in one day.  No point in doing that.

 

On 9/12/2022 at 10:48 PM, zadok said:

.Iceland for example, difficult to find n no coin dealers in the entire country n most likely a hand full of collectors if any there, even Hansen would find it difficult to assemble a complete set in gem condition regardless of price...some of the colonial coins u collect or the territorial coins i collect, Hansen n others wouldnt give a second thought to, no prestige even if completed n maybe 5 people in the entire world that would even care...

Agree

Of course, I also don't see any sense of accomplishment in having an essentially unlimited bank account and completing anything either.  What kind of accomplishment is there in that?

[zadok]

On 9/13/2022 at 4:33 PM, World Colonial said:

I was trying to point out that attempting to collect legitimately scarce but low to moderately priced coinage the same way most collectors buy US coinage isn't workable.

I am aware that no collector would ever choose to complete any series (other than maybe bullion) in one day.  No point in doing that.

 

Agree

Of course, I also don't see any sense of accomplishment in having an essentially unlimited bank account and completing anything either.  What kind of accomplishment is there in that?

...our bottom lines r basically the same, we just arrive there thru diff filters...i am assuming that most of ur comments r based upon the comparison of collecting foreign coins versus US coins..diff to compare since entirely diff concepts n motivations...prob best to show the differences rather than the commonalities...i know approaches to my foreign collections is much diff than mine to my  US collection...buying anything in one day isnt collecting its just acquiring....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, zadok said:

....i once sought n purchased a specific coin that had been off the market for 85 years n ive owned it now for 45 years so that coin has only been available once for the last 130 years n i bought it by private transaction, for all practical purposes that coin has been lost to the numismatic community for 13 decades n most likely will remain so for the foreseeable future as it will privately transfer to my son...it may never be on the open market again....

This comment illustrates best why even with the internet some may find it difficult, if not impossible, to collect and complete a  collection: availability. And that's why I am, and shall likely always remain, a Roostermeister weiner!  

[World Colonial]

On 9/14/2022 at 1:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

This comment illustrates best why even with the internet some may find it difficult, if not impossible, to collect and complete a  collection: availability. And that's why I am, and shall likely always remain, a Roostermeister weiner!  

Somewhere on this forum, RWB mentioned the existence of "old money" European collections going back 200+ years.  Long term ownership of specific coins is unusual but not an aberration.

The internet has made most coins available but the difference with many world coins is that it has both limited availability and isn't really worth selling. 

I have multiple coins in duplicate which I bought because it's about the only type I buy.  I'm not selling the extras as the proceeds won't make any difference financially to me and there aren't other coins I would rather own at anywhere near an equivalent cost.

So, this just means there is less for anyone else who might want to buy the same coins I do.  I alone probably own about one third of the limited number of better (AU and above) TPG coins for this series, somewhat more excluding the more available ones. 

[zadok]

On 9/14/2022 at 5:41 PM, World Colonial said:

Somewhere on this forum, RWB mentioned the existence of "old money" European collections going back 200+ years.  Long term ownership of specific coins is unusual but not an aberration.

The internet has made most coins available but the difference with many world coins is that it has both limited availability and isn't really worth selling. 

I have multiple coins in duplicate which I bought because it's about the only type I buy.  I'm not selling the extras as the proceeds won't make any difference financially to me and there aren't other coins I would rather own at anywhere near an equivalent cost.

So, this just means there is less for anyone else who might want to buy the same coins I do.  I alone probably own about one third of the limited number of better (AU and above) TPG coins for this series, somewhat more excluding the more available ones. 

...hence the term "duplicate set"...which i am fond of....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/13/2022 at 2:27 PM, DWLange said:

Eliasberg ceased acquiring USA coins around 1950, when he finally secured the 1873-CC No Arrows dime. He considered his collection complete at that point. 

Wow....so he finished very early.  And back then, no internet or coin shows to grab hard-to-get coins.

I think he showed his coins in his later years, maybe he did in the 1950's, too.  I don't know.

Thanks DL ! 

[VKurtB]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:10 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow....so he finished very early.  And back then, no internet or coin shows to grab hard-to-get coins.

I think he showed his coins in his later years, maybe he did in the 1950's, too.  I don't know.

Thanks DL ! 

His primary method of contact and acquisition was through mail contacts. So quaint. 

[DWLange]

Eliasberg did display his collection once he completed it through 1950. For instance, many of the most valuable pieces were featured in a rare color spread within Life Magazine in 1953. I had that article years ago but eventually sold it.

Later it was displayed in its entirety at the Philadelphia Mint for the Bicentennial in 1976.

[World Colonial]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:10 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow....so he finished very early.  And back then, no internet or coin shows to grab hard-to-get coins.

I think he showed his coins in his later years, maybe he did in the 1950's, too.  I don't know.

Thanks DL ! 

Even back then, I'm guessing the more expensive coins could be bought by having a dealer find it for you, if you made it worth their while.  Harvey Stack wrote a series of articles for Coin Week where he described doing this for Josiah Lilly.  This is the 6000 gold coin collection (US and world) later donated to the Smithsonian.  Few of those coins would be hard to buy now but presumably were a lot harder then.

[VKurtB]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:21 PM, World Colonial said:

Even back then, I'm guessing the more expensive coins could be bought by having a dealer find it for you, if you made it worth their while.  Harvey Stack wrote a series of articles for Coin Week where he described doing this for Josiah Lilly.  This is the 6000 gold coin collection (US and world) later donated to the Smithsonian.  Few of those coins would be hard to buy now but presumably were a lot harder then.

Many dealers today operate off of “want lists” from even prospective clients. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told, “send me your want list, no obligation.”

[DWLange]

Eliasberg worked through several dealers, after acquiring the Clapp Estate through Stack's in 1942. These dealers knew that he lacked most of the coins after the Clapps ceased collecting around 1913, and he would buy complete sets of Mercury Dimes, Walking Liberty Halves, etc. While all of the later coins were uncirculated, they were not selected with the discriminating eye of the Clapps, so the quality is often mediocre on these later issues (weak strikes, worn dies, etc.).

[World Colonial]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:51 PM, VKurtB said:

Many dealers today operate off of “want lists” from even prospective clients. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told, “send me your want list, no obligation.”

I have tried it a few times with no success.  This is with dealers who actually sell Latin coinage as I wouldn't bother with most dealers.

I bought four coins from one dealer you presumably know.  I don't need to ask him to do it since he offers what I collect when he can find it.  He offered me two of the four coins I bought before adding it to his website.  I'm sure he's done it for others too.  But the second time he offered, I didn't buy the coin and that's the last time,

Now, his prices are too high.  As an example, he listed one for $975 which sold on Heritage for about half that price.  Someone bought it too.  It happened to be a coin I own in duplicate in slightly higher grade (both MS-61 vs. AU-58) but I'd really have to want it to pay something like a 100% mark-up.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:51 PM, VKurtB said:

Many dealers today operate off of “want lists” from even prospective clients. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told, “send me your want list, no obligation.”

They can't be as numerous as pre-internet, right ?  Also, lots of the Big Hitters and even Medium Hitters now gets folks at Legend, Heritage, and GC to keep them posted on stuff, right ?

[VKurtB]

On 9/15/2022 at 7:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They can't be as numerous as pre-internet, right ?  Also, lots of the Big Hitters and even Medium Hitters now gets folks at Legend, Heritage, and GC to keep them posted on stuff, right ?

No, it’s as big as ever. It is THE WAY most high end collections are built. I’ll give you a recent example. At Harlan J. Berk, Ltd. of Chicago, a large accumulation (not really an organized collection) recently “walked in”. Many of the larger denomination coins were in 2x2 Manila colored envelopes, some with Max Mehl labels. The employee handling the material noticed an envelope that said 1895 Morgan Dollar. Another said 1895 proof Indian Cent. In a “junk bag of silver”, the 1895 proof V nickel, dime, quarter, and half were found. It was a complete 1895 proof set. There was also an 1893 proof Morgan. They sold the material. Brick and Mortar. Never saw Heritage. Never saw Stacks Bowers. Never saw Great Collections. You greatly underestimate the amount of material handled by the “face to face” dealer network.

Oh by the way, this accumulation, well into seven figures, contained not a single graded coin when Harlan Berk got it. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 9/15/2022 at 3:35 PM, World Colonial said:

I have tried it a few times with no success.  This is with dealers who actually sell Latin coinage as I wouldn't bother with most dealers.

I bought four coins from one dealer you presumably know.  I don't need to ask him to do it since he offers what I collect when he can find it.  He offered me two of the four coins I bought before adding it to his website.  I'm sure he's done it for others too.  But the second time he offered, I didn't buy the coin and that's the last time,

Now, his prices are too high.  As an example, he listed one for $975 which sold on Heritage for about half that price.  Someone bought it too.  It happened to be a coin I own in duplicate in slightly higher grade (both MS-61 vs. AU-58) but I'd really have to want it to pay something like a 100% mark-up.

There is a HUGE section specifically for World and Ancient coins at all ANA shows, and if your material can’t be found at NYINC, it can’t be found. 

[World Colonial]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:54 PM, VKurtB said:

There is a HUGE section specifically for World and Ancient coins at all ANA shows, and if your material can’t be found at NYINC, it can’t be found. 

I've never found much of anything at the five or six ANA shows I attended and never been to NYINC.  What I did find wasn't in the coins I primarily collect either, only my secondary collections.  I also don't think I would find much of anything.

It's possible some dealer had a coin I wasn't aware of but it's a low probability.  Most likely exceptions I know are Mike Dunnigan (who specializes in Mexico) and Mr. Eureka who posts on the PCGS forum, as neither have a website.  I have bought coins on eBay but only one (currently at NGC now) that I would consider better quality.

Here is a breakdown of where I sourced these coins.  Total population = 92

Auction direct: 47

eBay - full time dealer: 15

eBay - collector: 18 

Dealer direct: 12

Additional notes:  There is some overlap between dealer direct and eBay dealers.  I bought it from the same source.  Some of the eBay collectors are regular sellers, most probably though I didn't attempt to verify.  Of the 12 dealer direct purchases, all but two are from well-known sources.  The vast majority of my better coins were bought at auction or from full time dealers (eBay or direct).

So, to conclude, while I haven't pursued using dealers for direct purchase from collectors, I think I'm covering all the other bases.  I have on occasion missed coins I later identified but that was before I knew the sources I know now.

Edited September 16, 2022 by World Colonial

[zadok]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:59 PM, World Colonial said:

I've never found much of anything at the five or six ANA shows I attended and never been to NYINC.  What I did find wasn't in the coins I primarily collect either, only my secondary collections.  I also don't think I would find much of anything.

It's possible some dealer had a coin I wasn't aware of but it's a low probability.  Most likely exceptions I know are Mike Dunnigan (who specializes in Mexico) and Mr. Eureka who posts on the PCGS forum, as neither have a website.  I have bought coins on eBay but only one (currently at NGC now) that I would consider better quality.

Here is a breakdown of where I sourced these coins.  Total population = 92

Auction direct: 47

eBay - full time dealer: 15

eBay - collector: 18 

Dealer direct: 12

Additional notes:  There is some overlap between dealer direct and eBay dealers.  I bought it from the same source.  Some of the eBay collectors are regular sellers, most probably though I didn't attempt to verify.  Of the 12 dealer direct purchases, all but two are from well-known sources.  The vast majority of my better coins were bought at auction or from full time dealers (eBay or direct).

So, to conclude, while I haven't pursued using dealers for direct purchase from collectors, I think I'm covering all the other bases.  I have on occasion missed coins I later identified but that was before I knew the sources I know now.

...ur experiences in purchasing rarer foreign from the more obscure countries, especially colonial n territorial, mirror mine...most of my purchases r from auctions usually in the higher end signature type auctions n surprisingly from ebay, at one time i shunned ebay listings as amateur sources but then i realized that some of the major dealers utilize ebay to broaden their scope to find the equally rare collectors who want to buy their rare coins...its just as difficult for them to find us as it is for us to find their coins....

[World Colonial]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:16 PM, zadok said:

...ur experiences in purchasing rarer foreign from the more obscure countries, especially colonial n territorial, mirror mine...most of my purchases r from auctions usually in the higher end signature type auctions n surprisingly from ebay, at one time i shunned ebay listings as amateur sources but then i realized that some of the major dealers utilize ebay to broaden their scope to find the equally rare collectors who want to buy their rare coins...its just as difficult for them to find us as it is for us to find their coins....

Most of my auction purchases have been from US or Spanish sources.  Same for eBay and all my dealer direct.  Heritage is my largest single source with 14 but only four coins I rank as among the most difficult to buy.

I have a want list I would like to buy, compiled mostly from catalogs (Sellshopp and Patterson), Gilboy's plate coins, and the TPG pops.  A few sold prior to 2010 before I started looking diligently but mostly, I'm assuming that the same collector owns it even after up to 34 years or it sold privately.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:54 PM, VKurtB said:

There is a HUGE section specifically for World and Ancient coins at all ANA shows, and if your material can’t be found at NYINC, it can’t be found. 

Your point is well taken. But I believe I would look ridiculous pushing a walker i/f/o me at a busy coin show. Just sayin.'       

[VKurtB]

On 9/16/2022 at 10:10 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Your point is well taken. But I believe I would look ridiculous pushing a walker i/f/o me at a busy coin show. Just sayin.'       

Not at all. It is a VERY common sight to see both walkers and motorized chairs at all major shows. Preferred boarding at the airport, too. 

[VKurtB]

In 2019 the Best in Show Howland Wood Memorial Award at the ANA convention went to an exhibit of Guatemalan colonial pieces. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:13 PM, VKurtB said:

Not at all. It is a VERY common sight to see both walkers and motorized chairs at all major shows. Preferred boarding at the airport, too. 

[What about that guy running around with the Leica or Hasselblad? Do I really need to see a story with a picture of Q.A. on the front cover: "Notorious Former Troll Unveiled!"?  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:47 PM, VKurtB said:

No, it’s as big as ever. It is THE WAY most high end collections are built. I’ll give you a recent example. At Harlan J. Berk, Ltd. of Chicago, a large accumulation (not really an organized collection) recently “walked in”. Many of the larger denomination coins were in 2x2 Manila colored envelopes, some with Max Mehl labels. The employee handling the material noticed an envelope that said 1895 Morgan Dollar. Another said 1895 proof Indian Cent. In a “junk bag of silver”, the 1895 proof V nickel, dime, quarter, and half were found. It was a complete 1895 proof set. There was also an 1893 proof Morgan. They sold the material. Brick and Mortar. Never saw Heritage. Never saw Stacks Bowers. Never saw Great Collections. You greatly underestimate the amount of material handled by the “face to face” dealer network. Oh by the way, this accumulation, well into seven figures, contained not a single graded coin when Harlan Berk got it. 

Very informative, thanks for the info. 

Max Mehl died in 1957 so someone -- probably in their 20's or 30's if not older -- has to be in their 80's or 90's today.  My point being that the oldest generation of collectors who wanted pre-1933 Gold and other coins from the 1900's - 1950's should be getting up in age, if they haven't passed on already.  

So while I accept your statements as fact, I would still think that the supply of said walk-ins should be DROPPING today relative to 10 or 20 or 40 years ago.  I could be wrong, but I would think that by the early-1980's after a decade-plus of inflation and economic ups-and-downs, that most people who had hoards would have liquidated or sold.

Could be wrong, but hard to see how.

Edited September 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969