What is DL Hansen’s Strategy? 0

[Woods020]

I have been buying a few coins recently from DL Lawrence, and their auctions are consistently flooded with DL Hansen collection coins. This is confusing to me because it seems a waste of both time and resources to buy and upgrade in his situation.  The average collector this makes sense. You buy what you can afford and upgrade over time. But how is it a good strategy for his situation? Reslabbing and resell fees erode resources, so why not buy top pop coins to start with where possibilities? And I am specifically reference coins such as Mercury dimes where better coins are often readily available than what he originally purchased.

What am I missing? Why is this part of his strategy to buy and upgrade in the short term?

[GoldFinger1969]

Who is Hansen and why is he/she important ?

[Woods020]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Who is Hansen and why is he/she important ?

As I understand it, he is a prominent businessman from Utah. He is making a run at assembling the finest collection of American coins to date. The Eliasberg collection updated to include the most recent if you will. 

[RWB]

5 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

As I understand it, he is a prominent businessman from Utah. He is making a run at assembling the finest collection of American coins to date. The Eliasberg collection updated to include the most recent if you will. 

Eliasberg's stated goal was to own one of every US coin made - not to have the highest quality available of each. He wanted the best quality but when not available, he settled for an inferior specimen rather than a hole. I have no idea about what Mr. Hansen's goal is.

[Woods020]

I know I’m tired of the DL Hansen holders. It’s getting harder to find nice specimens in certain coins right now without his name on them. I just don’t understand why he buys and upgrades as much as he does. Seems like a waste for him. 

[RWB]

13 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

I know I’m tired of the DL Hansen holders. It’s getting harder to find nice specimens in certain coins right now without his name on them. I just don’t understand why he buys and upgrades as much as he does. Seems like a waste for him. 

Maybe he has a short attention span and "wants" frequent gratification? That could explain your frequent buy-upgrade-buy cycle observation.

[Coinbuf]

12 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

I know I’m tired of the DL Hansen holders. It’s getting harder to find nice specimens in certain coins right now without his name on them. I just don’t understand why he buys and upgrades as much as he does. Seems like a waste for him. 

I hate those holders and will in every case include the cost to have the coin reholdered to a standard holder if I was bidding on one.  While I don't know the strategy it appears to me as this is mostly a marketing scheme, a cooperative endeavor between Mr. Hanson and DLRC.

[Woods020]

1 minute ago, Coinbuf said:

I hate those holders and will in every case include the cost to have the coin reholdered to a standard holder if I was bidding on one.  While I don't know the strategy it appears to me as this is mostly a marketing scheme, a cooperative endeavor between Mr. Hanson and DLRC.

That’s exactly what I was wondering coinbuf. There must be a thought that they can brand them DL Hansen and demand a premium. No other rationale that I see. And it sounds like for you and me both Coinbuf that the holders have the opposite effect. 

[Coinbuf]

Yep, I get the feeling that many of the coins in those holders have never been a part of his collection, just a marketing/selling vehicle.  Makes perfect sense as so many people want to own a piece of history owned by a famous collector, movie star, or athlete, and many are willing to pay a premium for those items.

[“”]

Hansen is a huge collector! Look at his sets across the street. I have a few slabs that have the Hansen on them. Also Dr. Long, Paul Kiraly, etc. I bought the coin not the holder so it doesn’t bother me.

I also don’t think it is unusual for coins to be sold as upgrades are made. I see quite a few coins that I owned at one time that are now in other sets. Albeit I don’t have my pedigree label on them as I was too tight to spend the extra for the label!

[Hoghead515]

He may be wanting to spread his name out there all over coin holders so everyone will remember him as a big player. And hoping one day people will want to collect his name as much as the coins. Just an opinion. There are several people out there in the world like that. Want to be remembered some way or another and want people to know or think they are important. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Hoghead515

[Just Bob]

The fact that someone can own a "Paul Kiraly " labeled holder just shows how very little these names on the labels mean.

[BOB GARR]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:33 AM, Woods020 said:

As I understand it, he is a prominent businessman from Utah. He is making a run at assembling the finest collection of American coins to date. The Eliasberg collection updated to include the most recent if you will. 

In my opinion Louis Eliasberg was the epitome of a true collector, he was not out to prove anything, his philosophy was to improve on his extensive collection which is exactly what he accomplished.

[zadok]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:25 PM, BOB GARR said:

In my opinion Louis Eliasberg was the epitome of a true collector, he was not out to prove anything, his philosophy was to improve on his extensive collection which is exactly what he accomplished.

...sort of...eliasberg was also a "hole filler", true he bought some super major rarities but sort of skimped on other areas of his collection with vf-xf coins as well...his very best coins quality wise were from other collections that he bought intact...hansen on the other hand is attempting to buy as high of grades as he can find...the garret, norweb, pogue collection were superior in quality to the eliasberg collection but not as complete....

[World Colonial]

On 9/9/2022 at 10:11 PM, zadok said:

...sort of...eliasberg was also a "hole filler", true he bought some super major rarities but sort of skimped on other areas of his collection with vf-xf coins as well...his very best coins quality wise were from other collections that he bought intact...hansen on the other hand is attempting to buy as high of grades as he can find...the garret, norweb, pogue collection were superior in quality to the eliasberg collection but not as complete....

Doesn't this have a lot to do with the difference in collecting approach at the time?

The differences in quality which modern US collecting finds so important now (mostly due to money) were a lot less important or irrelevant back then.

As one example, I've never heard that any elite collection cared about buying what are now the highest graded but very common or extremely common coins.

[zadok]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:03 PM, World Colonial said:

Doesn't this have a lot to do with the difference in collecting approach at the time?

The differences in quality which modern US collecting finds so important now (mostly due to money) were a lot less important or irrelevant back then.

As one example, I've never heard that any elite collection cared about buying what are now the highest graded but very common or extremely common coins.

...only in some areas...in general many if not most early collectors, lets say late 1880s to 1930s, were fairly satisfied with obtaining nice examples of each date n mint, especially if they were collecting multiple series...u also have to remember many earlier collectors barely acknowledged the different mints in determining their collections to be complete, they were date fillers...the journeyman collector was basically satisfied with obtaining all his coins from circulation, my grandfather collected all US series but never bought a coin in his life...the more advanced, read affluent, collectors strove for upgrading their collections to some comfortable level, many of these collectors never displayed or compared their collections with other collectors they collected for themselves, the hobby was not a competition it was a journey to satisfaction n a sense of accomplishment...QDB's first million dollar auction was from a small town, Belpre OH, relatively unknown collector n did not contain finest known coins...there were several very advanced collections assembled over the decades where highest obtainable quality was sought, especially in certain series, early American copper large cents n half cents come to mind...other series such as bust halves not so much, it seems that completeness by variety outweighed highest grades...in the Liberty Seated series there were several very advanced collectors, the Clapp collection, which Eliasberg bought intact, consisted of many of the finest known coins in both rare and common dates, the Clapp's strove for eliteness, many of their coins are to this day still the finest known....

[World Colonial]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:37 PM, zadok said:

...only in some areas...in general many if not most early collectors, lets say late 1880s to 1930s, were fairly satisfied with obtaining nice examples of each date n mint, especially if they were collecting multiple series...

I was thinking more of Eliasberg's contemporaries.

One of the many unpopular viewpoints I have expressed on coin forums is that the internet has eliminated the traditional challenge in collecting the coins most collectors collect, US and many other countries.

Most US are easier to buy because the much higher price level makes the coins available for sale with greater frequency, but it also applies to at minimum Europe and the Anglo-Saxon countries.

I have read the Hansen "Mega thread" on the PCGS forum intermittently.  Offhand, I recall he bought at least 95% of all US Mint issues within a few years and has mostly upgraded since.  Someone like him has the money to buy any coin, but even coins not normally available can be bought privately through the dealer network because these US coins are simultaneously expensive. 

It's not possible to do that for much lower priced non-US coinage without likely paying large premiums to "market" but even then, often the prospective buyer may not be able to identify the owner or even worse, confirm the coins they want even exist.

[Henri Charriere]

[FWIW... all I know is I disregarded the advice given to me when I was discharged from a hospital 2-1/2 years ago following major surgery--DO NOT MAKE ANY MAJOR DECISIONS!--and the next thing I know, P--- is sending me an award plaque for Best French Set. A fellow member (we all know and love) says none of that counts because I assembled the collection, uncollector-like, i.e., too quickly.  He's got a point. With Eliasberg and others, their compilations, many of them, were a labor of love undertaken with all due deliberation, some of which became a dogged life-long pursuit. One day a collector will make a passing reference to Q.A., and a collector within earshot will say, "Quintus Who? Never heard of him!"  

[VKurtB]

It pays to remember that Eliasberg assembled his collection BEFORE third party grading. He had one and only one way to discern a superior specimen, his own knowledge and experience. Think about whether YOU can do that. 

[zadok]

On 9/11/2022 at 3:45 PM, World Colonial said:

I was thinking more of Eliasberg's contemporaries.

One of the many unpopular viewpoints I have expressed on coin forums is that the internet has eliminated the traditional challenge in collecting the coins most collectors collect, US and many other countries.

Most US are easier to buy because the much higher price level makes the coins available for sale with greater frequency, but it also applies to at minimum Europe and the Anglo-Saxon countries.

I have read the Hansen "Mega thread" on the PCGS forum intermittently.  Offhand, I recall he bought at least 95% of all US Mint issues within a few years and has mostly upgraded since.  Someone like him has the money to buy any coin, but even coins not normally available can be bought privately through the dealer network because these US coins are simultaneously expensive. 

It's not possible to do that for much lower priced non-US coinage without likely paying large premiums to "market" but even then, often the prospective buyer may not be able to identify the owner or even worse, confirm the coins they want even exist.

...ok lets look at Eliasberg's time period...true, the internet has destroyed probably more than it has created...as far as pure coin collecting, the internet is a two edged sword, it has allowed many collectors to add to their collections from sources they other wise would not have access to however, it has virtually eliminated "collecting" for an equal number of collectors, they just sit at home n punch buttons n no longer participate personally in the hobby...vkurt has correctly expounded on this numerous times, u cant truly grasp all the aspects of the hobby if u dont actively engage with other collectors n the real market of the hobby, coin clubs help but r limited...Eliasberg's stated goals were to collect, but in reality he assembled, much like Hansen n other high profile collectors their acquisitions were thru agents...not quite the same...most coin collectors have to set parameters to their collecting ambitions, scope, levels of quality, budget n priorities of what to buy...some do not have these restraints n can buy whatever they want n whenever its available...i once sought n purchased a specific coin that had been off the market for 85 years n ive owned it now for 45 years so that coin has only been available once for the last 130 years n i bought it by private transaction, for all practical purposes that coin has been lost to the numismatic community for 13 decades n most likely will remain so for the foreseeable future as it will privately transfer to my son...it may never be on the open market again...but to answer one of ur original questions yes, there r a few select collectors that strive to obtain the finest available coins even in the most common dates regardless of premiums....

[zadok]

On 9/11/2022 at 7:21 PM, VKurtB said:

It pays to remember that Eliasberg assembled his collection BEFORE third party grading. He had one and only one way to discern a superior specimen, his own knowledge and experience. Think about whether YOU can do that. 

...ur observation is accurate re pre-tpg...n many of his lesser more common coins reflect that, many would be details coins today...i personally believe his concentration was on the super rarities n he paid little attention to the more mundane issues once they were obtained, once a hole was filled it was filled...his personal attention was on the unfilled holes n on those he was obsessed in obtaining n became an active collector...

[World Colonial]

On 9/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, zadok said:

..but to answer one of ur original questions yes, there r a few select collectors that strive to obtain the finest available coins even in the most common dates regardless of premiums....

I'm not referring to now or since PCGS came into existence.  I'm referring to an earlier time.  I don't know that no one did it but I'm confident hardly anyone would have paid more than modest premiums to do it. (I have heard it happened anecdotally.)

On 9/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, zadok said:

...true, the internet has destroyed probably more than it has created...as far as pure coin collecting, the internet is a two edged sword, it has allowed many collectors to add to their collections from sources they other wise would not have access to however, it has virtually eliminated "collecting" for an equal number of collectors, they just sit at home n punch buttons n no longer participate personally in the hobby...vkurt has correctly expounded on this numerous times, u cant truly grasp all the aspects of the hobby if u dont actively engage with other collectors n the real market of the hobby, coin clubs help but r limited...

This is how I collect as it's my only option for what I collect,.to my knowledge.

I could have attended the auctions in person but would be uneconomical to do so given the value of the coins I collect.

I could also literally contact dealers all over the world (even the ones who sell similar coins to mine) repeatedly and possibly never have found a single coin I don't own now that I would want to buy.  However many times they had anything, it wouldn't be many.  Back when I collected South Africa, I asked one of the more prominent dealers in that country how many times they had sold a better 1931 silver circulation strike in over 30 years.  Their answer was never.

If I were collecting pre-internet, I wouldn't be able to collect my primary interest, unless I did so only through private transactions, probably mostly through dealers.  That's what I presume the collections I know must have done (Norweb, Patterson, Sellschopp).  I haven't done that, yet.

[DWLange]

Eliasberg acquired the greater part of this collection in his single purchase of the Clapp Estate in 1942. A few additional coins were added one or two at a time, but most of what he didn't have from the Clapps (post-1913 issues) were purchased for him by dealers who sold him complete sets of those issues in block purchases. Eliasberg was not a great numismatist, just a wealthy and well connected one.

[zadok]

On 9/12/2022 at 5:33 PM, World Colonial said:

I'm not referring to now or since PCGS came into existence.  I'm referring to an earlier time.  I don't know that no one did it but I'm confident hardly anyone would have paid more than modest premiums to do it. (I have heard it happened anecdotally.)

This is how I collect as it's my only option for what I collect,.to my knowledge.

I could have attended the auctions in person but would be uneconomical to do so given the value of the coins I collect.

I could also literally contact dealers all over the world (even the ones who sell similar coins to mine) repeatedly and possibly never have found a single coin I don't own now that I would want to buy.  However many times they had anything, it wouldn't be many.  Back when I collected South Africa, I asked one of the more prominent dealers in that country how many times they had sold a better 1931 silver circulation strike in over 30 years.  Their answer was never.

If I were collecting pre-internet, I wouldn't be able to collect my primary interest, unless I did so only through private transactions, probably mostly through dealers.  That's what I presume the collections I know must have done (Norweb, Patterson, Sellschopp).  I haven't done that, yet.

...i understand ur "pain" so to speak, but in many ways u n i to a certain extent r the outliers here mostly due to what we collect...n our circumstances do not parallel the majority of collectors...most collectors collect what is available to them n seldom attempt to collect obscure seldom offered issues... to us that may be a part of the challenge n after advancing our collections can enjoy waiting years to acquire certain coins n often r happy to acquire only 2-3 coins in a given year...but most collectors might find that detrimental to their collecting zeal n unfulfilling ...but thats the reality of collecting foreign relatively unpublicized issues...pre-internet i subscribed to magazines in the countries that i collected n bought mostly by private transaction from dealers in those countries n attended in person auctions of those countries' coins when offered in the US, i also utilized foreign auction houses as agents via want lists...it was not uncommon for me to travel n spend say $2000 in expenses to buy $1200 in coins...yes Mrs Norweb did utilize agents to purchase for her in foreign countries n in the US she was so well connected the coins were sent to her to pick n choose, as did many of the more affluent collectors...so in our particular cases the internet has provided a path to find n acquire but at a collecting loss at the same time...as to the other question of older collections being assembled n upgraded without significant premiums, i dont find that to be so...i could provide u probably the names of 20 major collections pre-1900 that did just that...if interested ill do so....

[VKurtB]

On 9/12/2022 at 4:33 PM, World Colonial said:

I'm not referring to now or since PCGS came into existence.  I'm referring to an earlier time.  I don't know that no one did it but I'm confident hardly anyone would have paid more than modest premiums to do it. (I have heard it happened anecdotally.)

This is how I collect as it's my only option for what I collect,.to my knowledge.

I could have attended the auctions in person but would be uneconomical to do so given the value of the coins I collect.

I could also literally contact dealers all over the world (even the ones who sell similar coins to mine) repeatedly and possibly never have found a single coin I don't own now that I would want to buy.  However many times they had anything, it wouldn't be many.  Back when I collected South Africa, I asked one of the more prominent dealers in that country how many times they had sold a better 1931 silver circulation strike in over 30 years.  Their answer was never.

If I were collecting pre-internet, I wouldn't be able to collect my primary interest, unless I did so only through private transactions, probably mostly through dealers.  That's what I presume the collections I know must have done (Norweb, Patterson, Sellschopp).  I haven't done that, yet.

Come ON! There is no type of collecting that would be impossible without the Internet. There used to be these things (implied upward tone of voice as if a question) called letters (again) and people would write down messages (yup, again) and put them in envelopes (ditto) and put a stamp on them (last time, I promise). You get the idea. Relationships with dealers is how this hobby used to operate. I even had a correspondence with a Belgian collector. Internet, schminternet. 

[VKurtB]

What might not have been possible in the pre-TPGS era is Registry Sets and all that kind of competition. You’ll pardon me, I hope, if I don’t see their existence as a plus for the hobby. 
 

The Exhibiting Committee of the ANA recently met and the UTTER DISDAIN for which Registry Sets are held was as clear and present as skiing into a stout maple tree. Ask Sony Bono or Michael Schumacher. 

Edited September 12, 2022 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:35 PM, VKurtB said:

Come ON! There is no type of collecting that would be impossible without the Internet. There used to be these things (implied upward tone of voice as if a question) called letters (again) and people would write down messages (yup, again) and put them in envelopes (ditto) and put a stamp on them (last time, I promise). You get the idea. Relationships with dealers is how this hobby used to operate. I even had a correspondence with a Belgian collector. Internet, schminternet. 

Have you ever looked for the coins I primarily collect?  There isn't enough money to make it worthwhile for a dealer to even attempt to find the coin for me, possibly excepting paying multiples to current estimated value.

Collecting (relatively) low priced hard to find coins doesn't apply in collecting US coinage, except under some specialization where most of it was invented because most US series are so easy to complete. 

As a date, all US coins are either cheap when common or expensive if scarce or rare.  There is nothing in the middle.  Common coins are easy to buy by definition.  Somewhat scarce but (very) expensive coins are more prominent and have a high enough turnover where the coin is easy enough to buy also.  Most of the coins which most US collectors consider scarce are actually common and also easy to buy, like practically all 20th century key dates.  It's only actually rare and scarcer US coins with the highest preferences that are actually hard to buy.

Anyone who has the money can literally complete the majority of US series (a noticeable majority) in one day, either in "high" or "acceptable" (by pre-TPG standards) quality.  That's why it was so easy for Hansen to reach the completion rate in his collection as fast as he did.

As an example, it's possible to buy every single US regular issue circulation strike half dollar in the quality I described in one day, outside of the scarcest Liberty Seated and maybe the 1794, excluding specialization like die varieties.  Same applies to every series back to the Barber coinage, excluding Saints and Indian Head eagles.

No one can do that with the primary series I collect or anything close to it.  Though the exact scarcity is only partially known, the coins are actually hard to buy, there is limited incentive to sell due to the low to moderate market value, and the coins apparently have a high enough preference where the owners do not want to sell it.  Otherwise, I would have seen more of the coins I know exist from prominent collections which I have not.

[zadok]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:14 PM, World Colonial said:

Have you ever looked for the coins I primarily collect?  There isn't enough money to make it worthwhile for a dealer to even attempt to find the coin for me, possibly excepting paying multiples to current estimated value.

Collecting (relatively) low priced hard to find coins doesn't apply in collecting US coinage, except under some specialization where most of it was invented because most US series are so easy to complete. 

As a date, all US coins are either cheap when common or expensive if scarce or rare.  There is nothing in the middle.  Common coins are easy to buy by definition.  Somewhat scarce but (very) expensive coins are more prominent and have a high enough turnover where the coin is easy enough to buy also.  Most of the coins which most US collectors consider scarce are actually common and also easy to buy, like practically all 20th century key dates.  It's only actually rare and scarcer US coins with the highest preferences that are actually hard to buy.

Anyone who has the money can literally complete the majority of US series (a noticeable majority) in one day, either in "high" or "acceptable" (by pre-TPG standards) quality.  That's why it was so easy for Hansen to reach the completion rate in his collection as fast as he did.

As an example, it's possible to buy every single US regular issue circulation strike half dollar in the quality I described in one day, outside of the scarcest Liberty Seated and maybe the 1794, excluding specialization like die varieties.  Same applies to every series back to the Barber coinage, excluding Saints and Indian Head eagles.

No one can do that with the primary series I collect or anything close to it.  Though the exact scarcity is only partially known, the coins are actually hard to buy, there is limited incentive to sell due to the low to moderate market value, and the coins apparently have a high enough preference where the owners do not want to sell it.  Otherwise, I would have seen more of the coins I know exist from prominent collections which I have not.

...basically true...however, 99% of the participants on this forum most likely collect those series u r referring to as common n easy to assemble, the flies in the ointment of ur hypothesis is they dont have Hansen money n they r not just filling holes, many if not most r attempting to complete sets that exhibit uniformity, average grades, comparable appearances etc...therein lies the obstacles n creates the challenges that make this hobby interesting...many if not most consider some of the areas that u n i collect as non-collections or non-collectible coins, partially because of miniscule exposure n the limited collectibility of those coins in their own countries, Iceland for example, difficult to find n no coin dealers in the entire country n most likely a hand full of collectors if any there, even Hansen would find it difficult to assemble a complete set in gem condition regardless of price...some of the colonial coins u collect or the territorial coins i collect, Hansen n others wouldnt give a second thought to, no prestige even if completed n maybe 5 people in the entire world that would even care...yet we strive forward...all of these super high grade sets r built around prestige n notoriety...the early collectors seldom if at all even displayed or shared their collections, they were for self satisfaction....

[zadok]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:45 PM, VKurtB said:

What might not have been possible in the pre-TPGS era is Registry Sets and all that kind of competition. You’ll pardon me, I hope, if I don’t see their existence as a plus for the hobby. 
 

The Exhibiting Committee of the ANA recently met and the UTTER DISDAIN for which Registry Sets are held was as clear and present as skiing into a stout maple tree. Ask Sony Bono or Michael Schumacher. 

...i wasnt aware that there was a category in the exhibit competition for registry sets, i had assumed if someone had a registry set n wanted to compete with it they would need to tailor their display to conform to one of the categories n probably wouldnt even mention it was a registry set...interesting idea to actually attempt to do that with a registry set n see if one could ribbon?....

[VKurtB]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:52 PM, zadok said:

...i wasnt aware that there was a category in the exhibit competition for registry sets, i had assumed if someone had a registry set n wanted to compete with it they would need to tailor their display to conform to one of the categories n probably wouldnt even mention it was a registry set...interesting idea to actually attempt to do that with a registry set n see if one could ribbon?....

Some have now tried to “decorate” a registry set with an attempt to tell a story, to mixed reviews.