Coin Worlds Most Influential People in Numismatics Survey 1 1

[RWB]

I agree with Physics-fan3.14's comment:

"Influential people are people who've reshaped what we know or understand, how we think about a significant portion of the hobby, how we approach our knowledge."

These are the innovators, change agents, fact finders whose contributions alter the course of coin collecting and/or numismatics in some identifiable way. Independent authentication and grading might be the largest short-term change. It has affected nearly all aspects of hobby and business. The innovators back at ANA, and those originating PCGS and NGC, are the ones who reshaped the hobby. Their successors, regardless of name recognition or wealth, are followers not the innovators.

If we examine the Coin World list from this perspective many names fall away, and voters will have a much clearer idea of the substance.

The take away is that name recognition, or wealth, or dealing in rare coins within the hobby does not equal innovation or true influence.

[zadok]

...innovators and reshapers are not necessarily beneficial to the hobby...changing a hobby does not always make it better...many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements, original research into the roots of any hobby is usually a productive effort that adds clarification and historical documentation, research and innovation that is designed and motivated to simply influence others into following a desired path does not necessarily make the hobby better...not all innovators, reshapers, researchers are equal, some have actually damaged the hobby...perhaps the greatest influencers of a hobby were the originators and discoverers of the hobby while in its purest form and not all those that seek to change it...perhaps Coin World should have titled their survey to be a list of greatest positive influencers...

[gmarguli]

A very bizarre list. 

Deep pocket collectors - Who cares about them.

Dealers that have done nothing for the hobby that didn't make them more money. Some scummy ones on the list. 

Some well known names, but I couldn't name a single thing they did for the benefit of the hobby.

Extremely US-centric list. 

And of course there were people who made significant contributions to the hobby, but for one reason or another they are too controversial to put there.

I'd have much rather seen several list broken down by type of contribution (numismatic research; collector outreach; advancing the hobby; philanthropy, etc).

[World Colonial]

3 hours ago, zadok said:

many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements

I agree but to many "collectors" is considered the equivalent of heresy.  Much of what passes for "collecting" in US "numismatics" is actually financialization.

[physics-fan3.14]

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I agree but to many "collectors" is considered the equivalent of heresy.  Much of what passes for "collecting" in US "numismatics" is actually financialization.

While that is often true, many of the truly great collections were actually assembled by dedicated numismatists who genuinely enjoyed the coins and contributed to the hobby. Newman comes to mind as a prominent example. Eliasberg was a collector, albeit an incredibly wealthy one. Bruce Morelan always comes off as a coin person who just happens to have truckloads of money - but his passion for the coins is always clear. You might disagree with some of the decisions he's made, but any interview with him and his passion for the coins really comes through. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by physics-fan3.14

[physics-fan3.14]

6 hours ago, zadok said:

...innovators and reshapers are not necessarily beneficial to the hobby...changing a hobby does not always make it better...many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements, original research into the roots of any hobby is usually a productive effort that adds clarification and historical documentation, research and innovation that is designed and motivated to simply influence others into following a desired path does not necessarily make the hobby better...not all innovators, reshapers, researchers are equal, some have actually damaged the hobby...perhaps the greatest influencers of a hobby were the originators and discoverers of the hobby while in its purest form and not all those that seek to change it...perhaps Coin World should have titled their survey to be a list of greatest positive influencers...

I believe the underlying assumption both of the poll and of my post are that these are positive influences. 

I can list quite a few nominees for negative influencers (and some of them would be on that CoinWorld list...), but even those are controversial figures who've also contributed positively. For example, Rick Tomaska: today, he's known as a shuckster hyping overpriced tripe on coin-tv, mercilessly ripping off unsuspecting sheep. However, in his early career he wrote a couple of books that helped influence our understanding of cameo proof coinage, as well as Franklin halves. He started out his career making some really positive contributions, including helping PCGS and NGC develop and implement their Cam/Dcam and FBL designations (well, many of consider that a positive... some could argue). So, he's got good and bad - but there is no denying he's had influence on the hobby. 

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

While that is often true, many of the truly great collections were actually assembled by dedicated numismatists who genuinely enjoyed the coins and contributed to the hobby. Newman comes to mind as a prominent example. Eliasberg was a collector, albeit an incredibly wealthy one. Bruce Morelan always comes off as a coin person who just happens to have truckloads of money - but his passion for the coins is always clear. You might disagree with some of the decisions he's made, but any interview with him and his passion for the coins really comes through. 

I make a clear distinction between "great" collections under more recent criteria and those of the past, as in prior to the mid-1970's.  

I don't assign any "greatness" to any collection where much, most or all of the distinction is mostly due to the quality for what are predominantly actually common coins.  Some collections of common coins I consider distinctive; some better early US federal type would be one.  This coinage has been expensive and highly perceived since before I was born and prior to widespread "investing" in US coinage.

Edited October 28, 2020 by World Colonial

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

For example, Rick Tomaska: today, he's known as a shuckster hyping overpriced tripe on coin-tv, mercilessly ripping off unsuspecting sheep. However, in his early career he wrote a couple of books that helped influence our understanding of cameo proof coinage, as well as Franklin halves. He started out his career making some really positive contributions, including helping PCGS and NGC develop and implement their Cam/Dcam and FBL designations (well, many of consider that a positive... some could argue). So, he's got good and bad - but there is no denying he's had influence on the hobby. 

Anybody ever talk to this guy (I wonder if he was at FUN earlier this year) ?  I wonder what is his rationale for selling the overpriced stuff he hawks on TV. 

[brg5658]

10 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Anybody ever talk to this guy (I wonder if he was at FUN earlier this year) ?  I wonder what is his rationale for selling the overpriced stuff he hawks on TV. 

Because he owns the TV channel. Just Google the guy.  Whatever supposed knowledge he added to the hobby early in his career has been overshadowed by his disgusting huckster career since.  Just IMO of course. 

[James_OldeTowne]

I have to pass on participating.  The list seems skewed towards dealers, marketeers, etc.  Technically, they DO "influence" numismatics, but not in a way that typically benefits me.

[brg5658]

Another glaring oversight is Steve Hayden. He has done more to catalog, photograph, describe, and promote the collecting of Civil War era tokens and other US exonumia than most anyone I can think of. 

Final thoughts:  To create a list like this with true numismatic researchers and scholars (like @RWB) interspersed with other names of hucksters and greedy business people is insulting at best.  It appears CoinWorld may have created a large part of this list from advertisers in their magazine. Some transparency as to how these names were determined would be nice. As currently drafted, the list screams “ill-conceived ego-stroke.”

[cladking]

The list is heavily weighted to living people.  

 

Big names of the past like RS Yeoman or John J Pittman are omitted. There are a few great writers and researchers who could be on it.  Even a few people who post here and online (or did in the past) should be included.  

There are some interesting and well thought out selections as well as a few who might not be especially "influential". 

[RonnieR131]

I learned a lot from researching all of the names on the list, and I'm going to delve even deeper on some of their accomplishments. As far as Tomaska goes, yes, it's too hard to watch. You can only hope that some good comes from it. The people in their 30's and 40's, after they receive their purchase, maybe they finally research what they've bought, realize they've been had, and enter into the world of numismatics discovering a new hobby. They've learned an important lesson from the very start, 'don't believe everything you see and hear, be careful'. The elderly couple, 60's 70's, bought something they can pass down to grand and great grand children, a nice gift. They feel good about it, roll over on their 'My Pillow', smile and go to sleep. Rick, he made more money, and can go look for more to sell, dealing successfully. He's perceived like a 'disgusting shuckster', like a traitor blinded by money, like the 10 cent bottle of 'miracle' elixir salesman of old, but I bet a lot of dealers that name call and mock him would forget their jealousy and swap places with him in a flash if they could. (We do need to see his tax returns tho ) 

[Henri Charriere]

In the same issue Coin World announces their search for the sixty greatest influencers in the field of numismatics -- suggestions they want to compile for a special spring issue they intend to publish in the spring in, you guessed it, their 60th anniversary, comes the news that the ANA will be cutting their operating budget by nearly 10% for 2020-2021compared to 2019-2020. 

So whose sponsorship of the survey provides a clew as to who is looking for the information -- any why.

A few obvious personalities come to mind but that would be akin to listing by name the Chinese laborers who toiled anonymously on the transcontinental railroad, the inventor of the hybrid steam-powered sailing ship that brought gold buried in the fields of California to the Eastern seaboard and the Hunt Brothers who cornered the silver market and buoyed prices to heights in 1980 never seen since.  Unfortunately, their most influential trial endeavor would not make the list as would the gentlemen who created electrum and produced the world's first coin.  Coin World's tribute seems to have been created for little purpose more than giving themselves a pat on the back.  It's too bad some of the greatest engravers the country ever produced will not make the grade.  Maybe an enterprising fella on this Forum can start a thread labelled simply who were the most influential people in numismatics, and why -- exclusive of the guy who first thought of stomping out a coin for re-submission.

[Just Bob]

1 hour ago, brg5658 said:

Another glaring oversight is Steve Hayden. He has done more to catalog, photograph, describe, and promote the collecting of Civil War era tokens and other US exonumia than most anyone I can think of.

I looked for his name, specifically, and noticed it was missing. Nor is Paul Cunningham's name on the list. Ditto Steven Alpert. And, of course, if it were to include those who have passed away, Rich Hartzog would surely have been included.

[Insider]

On 10/27/2020 at 9:23 AM, brg5658 said:

It doesn't say anywhere that it is a list of living persons.  I think it is a disservice to not include people like Eric P. Newman if the years the list covers is really supposed to be 1960-2020.

 

On 10/26/2020 at 9:01 PM, physics-fan3.14 said:

Influential people are people who've reshaped what we know or understand, how we think about a significant portion of the hobby, how we approach our knowledge. 

Many of us could argue John Albanese to be one of the most influential people alive in our hobby (started PCGS... started NGC... started CAC....) Do his successors (David Hall, Mark Salzburg, etc) deserve to be on this list? I'd argue no. 

 

 

Thanks for verifying that.  I suspect that a list w/o all the deserving dead numismatists left off should be a clue but I agree with you that it should have been stated that only living people were on the list.

Betting that Hall, Salzburg, etc. do not deserve to be on this list would lose you every bet.   If I were ranking the contributions of the three you mentioned, I would place Hall's contribution above JA's.  However, when someone reaches the top of their chosen field as these numismatic businessmen, we are splitting hairs trying to rank their contributions (some that are unknown to most of us). 

[VKurtB]

17 minutes ago, Insider said:

Thanks for verifying that.  I suspect that a list w/o all the deserving dead numismatists left off should be a clue but I agree with you that it should have been stated that only living people were on the list.

Betting that Hall, Salzburg, etc. do not deserve to be on this list would lose you every bet.   If I were ranking the contributions of the three you mentioned, I would place Hall's contribution above JA's.  However, when someone reaches the top of their chosen field as these numismatic businessmen, we are splitting hairs trying to rank their contributions (some that are unknown to most of us). 

Which list is Hall on? The incredibly ugly Hawaiian shirt wearing list? Hands down winner.

[World Colonial]

2 hours ago, ronnie stein said:

As far as Tomaska goes, yes, it's too hard to watch. You can only hope that some good comes from it. The people in their 30's and 40's, after they receive their purchase, maybe they finally research what they've bought, realize they've been had, and enter into the world of numismatics discovering a new hobby. They've learned an important lesson from the very start, 'don't believe everything you see and hear, be careful'. 

More likely they are done buying coins for good.  This is the potential harm financializing collecting causes. 

It's what I also saw in South African "collecting" up until the 2011 price peak except it wasn't predominantly by telemarketers but by those selling on their version of eBay and engaging in hype on their coin forum.  They claimed they were promoting "collecting" but it's evident they were only interesting in maximizing a potential windfall as soon as possible.

[brg5658]

15 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Which list is Hall on? The incredibly ugly Hawaiian shirt wearing list? Hands down winner.

Coin dealers of the ilk that some here are defending probably come right after Lawyers and Car Salesmen on the list of most “greasy” professions.  
 

If the list was supposed to be “Top Numismatic Businessmen” then that’s what it should have been called.  Probably 25% of the list (at most) qualify as actual Numismatists first, and businessmen 2nd or not at all. Nothing wrong with being a businessman, but that doesn’t mean you have contributed positively to numismatics.  “Influential” can be construed as being positive, but influence can be bad just as well as good. 

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

Coin dealers of the ilk that some here are defending probably come right after Lawyers and Car Salesmen on the list of most “greasy” professions.  
 

If the list was supposed to be “Top Numismatic Businessmen” then that’s what it should have been called.  Probably 25% of the list (at most) qualify as actual Numismatists first, and businessmen 2nd or not at all. Nothing wrong with being a businessman, but that doesn’t mean you have contributed positively to numismatics.  “Influential” can be construed as being positive, but influence can be bad just as well as good. 

Wasn't the adjective that was used "influential"? It was! Dealers, particularly BIG dealers, who deal in BIG coins, are surely "influential", both in how they provide a service in helping the high end build major collections, the unsurprising part, but also that these types always seem to dominate the ANA Board of Governors elections. SOMEBODY keeps voting for the dealers. It surely isn't me!

[Insider]

23 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Which list is Hall on? The incredibly ugly Hawaiian shirt wearing list? Hands down winner.

When you've done what he has, he can wear any shirt he wants.  I've heard some Hawaiian shirts are very expensive.  IMO, some are very attractive.   Best of all, it must be very nice to reach a point in life where the   of the chat room mavens don't even register in his universe.  

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, Insider said:

When you've done what he has, he can wear any shirt he wants.  I've heard some Hawaiian shirts are very expensive.  IMO, some are very attractive.   Best of all, it must be very nice to reach a point in life where the   of the chat room mavens don't even register in his universe.  

I'm now about 5 weeks from retirement from state government service, and I will probably NOT throw away my business suits. When I pack for a 5-day ANA show, like this August in Rosemont, my suitcase will include 7 ANA golf/polo shirts, 5 blue for the actual show days and 2 red for the day before and day after, when I'm still working, but it will also include two business suits, an Armani and a custom made one from a small Italian tailor. I own one Hawaiian shirt. I haven't worn it since I left Hawaii in 1994.

[Insider]

6 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I'm now about 5 weeks from retirement from state government service, and I will probably NOT throw away my business suits. When I pack for a 5-day ANA show, like this August in Rosemont, my suitcase will include 7 ANA golf/polo shirts, 5 blue for the actual show days and 2 red for the day before and day after, when I'm still working, but it will also include two business suits, an Armani and a custom made one from a small Italian tailor. I own one Hawaiian shirt. I haven't worn it since I left Hawaii in 1994.

Hey, you should be on the list of best dressed former ANA Board Members!  

In the "old days" you would have gotten a gold pocket watch to wear with your suit..

Edited October 28, 2020 by Insider

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, Insider said:

Hey, you should be on the list of best dressed former ANA Board Members!  

In the "old days" you would have gotten a gold pocket watch.

Not former, hopefully future.

[MarkFeld]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Which list is Hall on? The incredibly ugly Hawaiian shirt wearing list? Hands down winner.

He founded PCGS. Whatever you think of PCGS or him, there’s no denying the huge influence he’s had on the hobby and the business.

[VKurtB]

8 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

He founded PCGS. Whatever you think of PCGS or him, there’s no denying the huge influence he’s had on the hobby and the business.

True enough, but his impact on the fashion sense of the hobby is also undeniable.  FWIW, not a fan of PCGS, not even a little bit.

Edited October 28, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

True enough, but his impact on the fashion sense of the hobby is also undeniable.  FWIW, not a fan of PCGS, not even a little bit.

Care to tell us why?  Please try to be short, sweet, and very specific. 

Examples:  Poor customer service, too expensive, slow turnaround, the previous owner wears ugly Hawaiian shirts, etc.  Then someone may disagree.  

 

[VKurtB]

10 minutes ago, Insider said:

Poor customer service

This hits it squarely on the head as Reason #1. The second reason is aesthetic. I really hate the PCGS slab itself. #3 is the need to constantly refer to their alleged superiority, a claim of which I can find zero evidence. Fourth is their constant status of being excessively "dealer-centric". Yes, I have an attitude problem with dealers of many sorts. There are extremely few I use.

Virtually ALL of my submissions to a TPGS are live, in person, at a major show. NGC's staff is helpful and charming. PCGS's acts like they're doing me a favor talking to me. And THIS despite the fact that I am clearly working FOR the ANA at the show. Bad form.

And the SAME is true whether I'm doing business with them on the bourse floor or taking their staff's ID photos for their passes, or doing the "voice from the rafters" messages for them. PCGS people come across as rude, offensive, and entitled.

Edited October 28, 2020 by VKurtB

[RWB]

I normally use trained Zombies to do in-person coin submissions. This greatly improves communication with the clerks.

[VKurtB]

5 minutes ago, RWB said:

I normally use trained Zombies to do in-person coin submissions. This greatly improves communication with the clerks.

I AM the trained Zombie (It's a cerebral hemorrhage survivor joke.) many of my coin club mates use to drop off their submissions to both firms. And I provide the service to both submitter and TPGS to have my forms already filled out and correct before I sit down at their tables. We government types "do" forms really well.

Edited October 28, 2020 by VKurtB