Indian Head Half and Quarter Eagle Coins 1 1

[Just Bob]

On the Indian coins, the design is raised, but below the surface. "Incuse" means that the letters, numerals, etc. are punched into the coin, leaving a "hole" as if you took a shovel and dug in the dirt. The result is the same as what would show on the face of a die used to strike a normal coin, except not backwards. I can show you better than I can explain it. The letters on this token are punched into the planchet by raised lettering on the die:

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:10 PM, Just Bob said:

On the Indian coins, the design is raised, but below the surface. "Incuse" means that the letters, numerals, etc. are punched into the coin, leaving a "hole" as if you took a shovel and dug in the dirt. The result is the same as what would show on the face of a die used to strike a normal coin, except not backwards. I can show you better than I can explain it. The letters on this token are punched into the planchet by raised lettering on the die:

So incuse doesn't refer to the Indian portraits.  It's about the letters, numerals, etc. 

What do you mean "the design is raised but below the surface" ?  You mean below the rim ?  How is an incuse coin different than a regular or High Relief coin with deep basins ?

[Sandon]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What is an "incuse" coin ?

   On a coin whose design would be entirely "incuse", everything that is normally raised from the fields would be instead sunken into them. The fields would be higher than the devices, lettering, numbers, and any other design elements. I think I've seen some ancient coins that might meet this description but can't recall any more recent ones.  However, many coins have some design elements that are incuse.  For example, the words "E PLURIBUS UNUM" on Capped Bust dimes through half dollars that include these words, on Barber quarters and half dollars, and on current Union Shield reverse Lincoln cents are all incuse. So is the word "LIBERTY" on Barber coins and Morgan dollars.

   On Pratt's coins the design elements sit in recesses but are themselves struck up higher than the recesses. Even the letters and numbers are outlined in relief outside the recesses.  Only the recesses themselves could be called "incuse".  As far as I know, this style of design is unique, at least on U.S. coins.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What is an "incuse" coin ?

An hour ago I could tell you.  Now, in light of the foregoing, I am going to have to scratch my prior knowledge.  I too have always thought of those Indians when "incuse" is mentioned.  Clearly, the dates are incised, they have no relief. You learn something new every day!

[GoldFinger1969]

I think I got it....I'm trying to visualize it compared to a High Relief coin.

Sandon said the lettering is in the fields....so it's BELOW the fields...opposite of a raised device and High Relief.

Is that right, guys ?

 

[RWB]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What is an "incuse" coin ?

It would look much like a die --- the field was highest and everything else lower.

[RWB]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:30 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think I got it....I'm trying to visualize it compared to a High Relief coin.

Sandon said the lettering is in the fields....so it's BELOW the fields...opposite of a raised device and High Relief.

Is that right, guys ?

 

The upper-most surface of letters was at the same "height" as the field -- that is, the highest part of the design was the field and top surface of the Indian, etc.

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by RWB

[Sandon]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:41 PM, RWB said:

It would look much like a die --- the field was highest and everything else lower.

   An incuse coin would be like the mirror image of a die.  The areas that are in the highest relief on a regular coin are sunk most deeply into its coinage dies. Unlike a coinage die, however, the lettering and numbers of an incuse coin would not face backwards.

   NGC has an article on some ancient coins that have "a design in relief on the obverse and an incuse design on the reverse."  See NGC Ancients: Incuse Coinage of South Italy | NGC (ngccoin.com), although some of the photos are hard to interpret in two dimensions.

[GoldFinger1969]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of this incuse design ?

Has the U.S. Mint used this recently ?

[GoldFinger1969]

FYI, there are some interesting comments and footnotes leading to more historical documentation on the usage of the Half and Quarter Eagles in Roger's Saints DE book.  

For instance, talking about the 1917 "gold weight" amnesty , Roger noted that "...the reported redemptions suggest that eagles and half eagles were the primary circulating gold on the west coast, and that quarter eagles played almost no role in daily commerce."

Interesting.....

[USAuPzlBxBob]

In my U.S. Au type set, which is entirely housed in NGC holders, I have one of each of these gold types.

My only complaint is that NGC’s holders are tri-pronged for these type coins — smaller gold dollars, in comparison, are four-pronged, as well as every other gold coin in the collection — and the tri-pronged holders have an imposing appearance which I’m not particularly fond of.

[GoldFinger1969]

Was reading some old CDN Newsletters and there were some interesting long-term charts showing how the $2.50, $5, and $10 gold pieces tripled and quadrupled in a few years leading up to the 1989 bubble.  

I presume those highs have never been eclipsed, even with a much higher gold price ?

[numisport]

On 9/22/2020 at 4:29 PM, VKurtB said:

Absolutely! Everyone should use whatever tools work for them. As a 30+ year "film guy", I'm hypersensitive to the "stuff" that digital imaging has brought us. It's the "circle of life". Someday not that far into the future, us "film guys" will all be gone. Until then, we still drag our Leica M3's and Canon F-1's and Nikon F3's out and shoot film when we get nostalgic. Occasionally a 4x5 view camera too.

Is this anything like playing vinyl discs on a direct drive turntable ? 

[RWB]

There appears to be a continuing interest in film and home darkrooms. The range of products is small compared to the 1980s, and there's no product improvement pressure, but people continue to want hands-on control and the ability to "see' much deeper into a film negative than almost any digital image. I've mentioned before the old lunar photos made on film and their much superior tonal performance compared to "modern" NASA digital images.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/26/2022 at 3:27 PM, RWB said:

There appears to be a continuing interest in film and home darkrooms. The range of products is small compared to the 1980s, and there's no product improvement pressure, but people continue to want hands-on control and the ability to "see' much deeper into a film negative than almost any digital image. I've mentioned before the old lunar photos made on film and their much superior tonal performance compared to "modern" NASA digital images.

Yes, I was surprised to learn that there is alot of richness in those old classic films we see on TCM and other stations.  The old films and CinemaScope and B&W and color films from the 1930's thru 1960's had lots of depth that doesn't lose much in resolution when you digitize it today.  You'd think it would be hard to go much over 480p with the old stuff but not so as I am told.

I guess a Blu-Ray of "The Wizard Of Oz" is as rich today compared to 4K or Hi-Def as it was back then compared to the prototype early TV sets or simple projectors used in theaters.

Edited December 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/26/2022 at 3:43 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yes, I was surprised to learn that there is alot of richness in those old classic films we see on TCM and other stations.  The old films and CinemaScope and B&W and color films from the 1930's thru 1960's had lots of depth that doesn't lose much in resolution when you digitize it today.  You'd think it would be hard to go much over 480p with the old stuff but not so as I am told.

I guess a Blu-Ray of "The Wizard Of Oz" is as rich today compared to 4K or Hi-Def as it was back then compared to the prototype early TV sets or simple projectors used in theaters.

Watch a restored version (Blue Ray) of "Out Of The Past" with Mitchum, Greer and Douglas (1947, B&W) and the clarity and depth damn near blew my eyes out of their sockets, it was amazing! The restored B&W films are well worth revisiting if you have the time.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/26/2022 at 5:26 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Watch a restored version (Blue Ray) of "Out Of The Past" with Mitchum, Greer and Douglas (1947, B&W) and the clarity and depth damn near blew my eyes out of their sockets, it was amazing! The restored B&W films are well worth revisiting if you have the time.

They must be remastered or enhanced for TCM and other HD cable channels, right ?

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 12/26/2022 at 6:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They must be remastered or enhanced for TCM and other HD cable channels, right ?

No idea, don't have cable, satellite,  etc.. Never have. Don't have internet except when at work and a G or so per month on my phone. Got to charge extra time on my phone this last month because I was traveling, normally I'm only on the Forums around 5-6AM or after 5PM till 6:30. Before and at the end of the work day. 

I'm a cheap son-of-a-gun . 😆

Edited December 27, 2022 by Fenntucky Mike

[RWB]

Resolution of film is far greater than most optical systems and tonal range is on the single and aggregate crystal level. From this perspective, pixels are immense.

Digitization of old films, especially original print negatives and RGB separations, only show how awful digital originals actually are.

Edited December 27, 2022 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 12/26/2022 at 6:43 PM, RWB said:

Resolution of film is far greater than most optical systems and tonal range is on the single and aggregate crystal level. From this perspective, pixels are immense.

Digitization of old films, especially original print negatives and RGB separations, only show how awful digital originals actually are.

A decent Kodachrome slide has about 75 megapixels of resolution available. Direct to digital is pretty awful, truthfully. You get away with it because the monitors we use are so putrid. Put up a projection screen, and find a slide projector, fill a tray with Kodachrome slides - mind blown. 

[VKurtB]

On 12/26/2022 at 1:43 PM, numisport said:

Is this anything like playing vinyl discs on a direct drive turntable ? 

I have about 50-60 rolls of assorted 35mm films in a freezer. I also have vinyl records and a Technics direct drive turntable on my sound system. But I also have an iTunes library. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:35 AM, VKurtB said:

I have about 50-60 rolls of assorted 35mm films in a freezer.

Why ?  Cold preserves film ?  Are they still making 35mm film ?

[VKurtB]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:32 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Why ?  Cold preserves film ?  Are they still making 35mm film ?

Yes, cold greatly preserves film. And yes, “they” are still making film, mostly what had been professional films by Kodak and Fuji. Ilford Black & White films are still sold. If you’re curious, check out www.bhphoto.com and noodle around. My sister has sold what has been my dad’s business he had since 1956 in Reading, PA. The new guy still does film processing and scanning. 

[numisport]

On 12/27/2022 at 9:35 AM, VKurtB said:

I have about 50-60 rolls of assorted 35mm films in a freezer. I also have vinyl records and a Technics direct drive turntable on my sound system. But I also have an iTunes library. 

Yes your priorities are straight.

[VKurtB]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:47 AM, numisport said:

Yes your priorities are straight.

I’ve even digitized some of the vinyl and added those tracks to my iTunes library. Getting the track titles and metadata entered in is tedious. 

[VKurtB]

My Christmas gift from my sister-in-law in LA is a set of four liter-sized brown glass chemical bottles. Now I have to decide whether to use them for photo chemicals or coin conservation chemicals. 

[Henri Charriere]

Good afternoon, gentlemen:  I may not be smart enough to know the respective pros and cons between this type of film or that, but I do wish for it to be known for posterity that ol' Q, his innumerable shortcomings notwithstanding, was and has always been unalterably opposed to old classic movies which had been "colorized" without the owner studios'/director 's/producer's knowledge and consent.  Say what you may of the Woodman's choice of mate, but if he, and others, choose to film in b & w, it is safe to assume they had their artistic reason(s).

[RWB]

Sealed, frozen bricks of 35mm film (20 rolls per brick) can sell for $10-$12 per roll of Tri-X, and $20+ for Kodacolor 100 and Fujicolor 100. Some others are more costly.

[VKurtB]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:59 AM, VKurtB said:

My Christmas gift from my sister-in-law in LA is a set of four liter-sized brown glass chemical bottles. Now I have to decide whether to use them for photo chemicals or coin conservation chemicals. 

Thinking one for distilled water, one for acetone, one for Kodak Stain Remover S-10 (a much milder dip than EZest), and one for maybe extra virgin olive oil. I have the containers for holding the coins. 

[RWB]

Kindly avoid ginger ale in one and potassium cyanide in the other... Not a good way to achieve notoriety,

 

PS: I used gallon jugs until I could afford brown plastic containers for D-76 and Dektol.

Edited December 29, 2022 by RWB