Insider Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, VKurtB said: Just to be certain I don't misinterpret you, the "wolves" are who? Well, I'm one of the cubs. If I ever grow up, I may become a wolf. Wolf defined: Someone who knows more than you do about a particular subject as in wolf vs sheep. Edited August 19, 2020 by Insider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said: I most certainly will not dissect Insider's comment here. (Bad enough he had me effectively barred from another thread by laying down a gauntlet with a "bet" stipulation. You did good! Unfortunately, the most productive poster on the forum (the one I picked to post again ) did his part to make sure that nonsense discussion keeps going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 39 minutes ago, Insider said: Who is the anyone you refer to? It's not me. Read my post again. The ONLY good things I can see that have come from the "Commercial" TPGS are these: 1. Slabs 2. A bunch of innovators got rich - it's the American Way. 3. The coin market is a safer place for those who use the major TPGS. 4. Coins in amazing condition have come out of the woodwork. 5. Slabs allow anyone to be a coin dealer. 6. Slabs help folks to learn how to grade. Can anyone else thing of additional good things? 7. I wasn't implying that you were in favor of commercial grading. I was just quoting the statements that you had made in order to make my point a little more clear. You started your post with the word "unfortunately." That pretty much let me know your position right off the bat. Although this probably could fall under catagories 3 and 6, TPGs have also helped make the public more aware of problem coins, and helped us learn to identify them. Insider and Alex in PA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 (edited) On 8/19/2020 at 5:32 PM, Insider said: Can anyone else thing of additional good things? 7. Slabbed coins, authenticated and certified, command a higher price or premium than similar coins presented raw. 8. Peace of mind. Commercial TPGS, in large part, take the guesswork out of product identification. Two more: 9. A slabbed coin, assigned a unique certification number, can be easily verified on-line in the comfort of one's home, prior to purchase. 10. [At PCGS] a newly-acquired slabbed coin must be "released" by the previous owner before it can be formally added to one's Set Registry. (To speed up the process, I once submitted an invoice from an overseas dealer made out in euros which was promptly accepted.) Authentication, certification, encapsulation, registration codes, labels and photography are all deterrents to inadvertent or purposeful misrepresentation, theft and counterfeiting. Edited August 29, 2020 by Quintus Arrius Comment additions Insider 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted August 28, 2020 Author Share Posted August 28, 2020 Well that escalated quickly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 2 hours ago, jtryka said: Well that escalated quickly... As I said, one of the more interesting "guess the grade" threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 28, 2020 Share Posted August 28, 2020 It's really too bad I got mesmerized by VKurtB's luminosity, dwarf stars and the like because with almost a hundred posts on this question to date I would like to re-focus our attention on Maulemull's reference to "AU-60," at post position 3, which I refer to as "almost pregnant," and Coinbuf's "MS-60," at post position 4, which I refer to as "pregnancy confirmed." Would anyone in the know care to explain the distinction between the two grades so that a rank amateur, ME!, can understand? Much obliged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 17 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said: It's really too bad I got mesmerized by VKurtB's luminosity, dwarf stars and the like because with almost a hundred posts on this question to date I would like to re-focus our attention on Maulemull's reference to "AU-60," at post position 3, which I refer to as "almost pregnant," and Coinbuf's "MS-60," at post position 4, which I refer to as "pregnancy confirmed." Would anyone in the know care to explain the distinction between the two grades so that a rank amateur, ME!, can understand? Much obliged! I'll try. Commercial grading is an attempt to put a value on a coin. So today, many commercial graded Mint State coins are not. In an attempt to satisfy "purists" who are only concerned with a coin's actual and observable condition, some think that an assigned grade of say - AU-63 would bring these two groups closer in agreement. IMO, it will not happen because the folks doing the buying, selling, and grading are fine with the status quo. They are all in basic agreement and they control all segments of the market. They made things this way. The only way to bring all sides together is for everyone to strictly grade the coins by their actual condition and let the market makers price them. Then a grade of AU-63 will mean something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbpll Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 51 minutes ago, Insider said: AU-63 would bring these two groups closer in agreement Probably need MS-58 too then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 To think, there was a time, not that long ago, when Uncirculated meant just that, and not much more. You live and learn. Thanks to all for a lively exchange! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1384 Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 (edited) On 8/18/2020 at 11:08 PM, Just Bob said: Assigning a grade to a coin that is based on its perceived market value, rather than its technical merit, is, in my opinion, very detrimental to the hobby Boy, is this ever true. My 1899 Morgan.. never mind it’s too painful. Both myself and the chap I buy from both agree..you don’t want to throw a wrench into your population price reports now, do you ? I do like guessing the grade threads. Edited August 29, 2020 by Dave1384 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 As long as you've got places like Etsy and to a certain extent eBay, you will have offerings made on raw coins (and some even slabbed) based on no observable objective criteria. The upshot: the coin langushed on a site until it was either sold, or more likely, quietly withdrawn from sale. Buyer Beware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 19 hours ago, kbbpll said: Probably need MS-58 too then. You would think so but IMO not needed as MS-60 covers any MS coin down to the most beat up,baggy thing you can imagine that goes into the "cull" bucket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted August 29, 2020 Share Posted August 29, 2020 5 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said: As long as you've got places like Etsy and to a certain extent eBay, you will have offerings made on raw coins (and some even slabbed) based on no observable objective criteria. The upshot: the coin langushed on a site until it was either sold, or more likely, quietly withdrawn from sale. Buyer Beware! Don't forget Alibaba - where every day is a bargain day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted August 30, 2020 Author Share Posted August 30, 2020 On 8/28/2020 at 7:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said: It's really too bad I got mesmerized by VKurtB's luminosity, dwarf stars and the like because with almost a hundred posts on this question to date I would like to re-focus our attention on Maulemull's reference to "AU-60," at post position 3, which I refer to as "almost pregnant," and Coinbuf's "MS-60," at post position 4, which I refer to as "pregnancy confirmed." Would anyone in the know care to explain the distinction between the two grades so that a rank amateur, ME!, can understand? Much obliged! The idea as it evolved were that there were many coins that many "purists" or old school collectors would have said are high-AU coins (just so close to mint state, were it not for a slight rub on the high points or one too many bag marks) but in the days of TPGs and the evolution of grading standards (as well as multiple resubmissions and other similar factors) that a coin that in the past might be considered just shy of mint state, would be slabbed with a grade of MS-60 to MS-62. The snarky reply from the old school or more traditionalist collectors was that the grades were really AU-62, as the number denoted mint state, but everyone knows these coins are really and truly just nice AU examples. As for the need for an MS-58, it's an interesting idea, particularly for gold coins since the vast majority of eagles and double eagles never circulated (which my technical definition would make them all uncirculated) but when bankers had to count them every so often and audit them, bringing them out of the bags/vault and then putting them back in, they easily acquired a larger number of marks than you might see from a newly released bag of silver or other minor coins. This tends to be one of the reasons why TPGs can be more lenient with gold, particularly the later issues. You don't have nearly the controversies on earlier issues, I also collect classic head half eagles and with so many circulated examples, you rarely count the bag marks for a VF or XF coin! You also note that many of the MS coins in those earlier series are much more likely to be truly MS given the price jump in the higher grades. As noted for my coin above and many others (like MS-63 common date double eagles, the coins basically trade for gold value so whether it's a classically graded AU-58 or a generous MS-62 or MS-63, the price isn't all that different. MAULEMALL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Why does any of this matter anymore since the vast majority of the remaining technical grading fetishists can no longer see well enough to be able to discern rub/wear from a non-full strike? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 On 8/18/2020 at 11:26 AM, Insider said: I disagree in part. Much can be learned from decent images. Images are used in grading seminars to introduce students to what they will see/look for on actual coins. Besides, GTG discussions are just fun & helpful exercises. I don’t know about your grading seminars, but I took a two days, 16 hour one, and we stopped using photos in Hour 1. Regarding GTG, you and I have wildly differing ideas of fun. Helpful? Not at all, IMHO. I spent over 25 years in the photography business, and I am keenly aware of its gross limitations when dealing with coins. Lighting is so utterly important to the point that nearly nothing else matters. My ex-wife’s Glamour Shots appointment proved for all time that photos tell falsehoods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insider Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 16 hours ago, VKurtB said: I don’t know about your grading seminars, but I took a two days, 16 hour one, and we stopped using photos in Hour 1. Regarding GTG, you and I have wildly differing ideas of fun. Helpful? Not at all, IMHO. I spent over 25 years in the photography business, and I am keenly aware of its gross limitations when dealing with coins. Lighting is so utterly important to the point that nearly nothing else matters. My ex-wife’s Glamour Shots appointment proved for all time that photos tell falsehoods. You must shudder at all my posted images. However, photo's are a fast way to get everyone on track. Saves lots of time when you don't need to explain what machine doubling looks like to twenty individual students! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Insider said: You must shudder at all my posted images. However, photo's are a fast way to get everyone on track. Saves lots of time when you don't need to explain what machine doubling looks like to twenty individual students! Don’t feel singled out, Skip. I shudder at almost all coin photos. MAULEMALL and Insider 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
