A little "Old Tyme" fun for modern 'gold bugs.' 1 1

[RWB]

Imagine if this 1850 bill (S.343 by Sen. Fremont) had become law....

On motion by Mr. Ewing to amend the bill by striking out all the 7th section after the word “enacted,” in the 1st line, and in lieu thereof inserting: “That all gold extracted from the mines and placers of the United States in California shall be and remain the property of the United States, as well after as before it is taken from the placer or mine; and the gold collected by each person having a permit, and those employed by him, shall be delivered weekly, and oftener if demanded, to the agent for the district, who shall give him therefor gold or silver coin of the United States, or stamped bullion, or a certificate entitling the lessee or his assigns to receive at the mint or assay office of the United States in California gold or silver coin, or stamped bullion, or a draft on the treasury of the United States, at the rate of sixteen dollars for every ounce of crude gold, with its usual alloy, as taken from the placer or mine. And if any person having a permit shall neglect or refuse to deliver to the agent, on demand, all the gold he shall have taken from any such placer or mine, or shall sell, barter, or otherwise dispose of any such gold, he shall forfeit his permit and location, and no other shall be granted him, and such gold, and all the interest of such person or his assignee therein, shall be absolutely forfeited to the United States

Edited July 10, 2020 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

Att:  RWB

Having gone through the time and trouble of posting this fascinating historical extract, I want you to know how much I appreciate seeing the fruits of your research.  Clearly, your interest in numismatics extends well beyond the simple pleasures of collecting coins. Only a comparatively short time after gold was discovered in California, it is incredible to see how fast federal legislators could move in the days of horse-and-buggies and steamships -- no transcontinental trains; no planes. Good thing wiser heads prevailed.  Thanks much for sharing!

[Alex in PA.]

I wonder what the miners would have done if that became law.  1850s in California was still the wild west.  And where have we heard that name Fremont before?

[Henri Charriere]

1 minute ago, Alex in PA. said:

I wonder what the miners would have done if that became law.  1850s in California was still the wild west.  And where have we heard that name Fremont before?

You're right about that. And this was before the S.S. Central America sank (1857) with enough gold to cause a panic.  I love these historical tidbits!

[Conder101]

I'm not sure it would have changed things all that much.  This provision would have made all the gold in the US in the ground government property,  and would have required miners to turn over what the found/dug up to the government at the Mint price.  But most all of the gold probably made its way to the Mints eventually anyway and was coined or turned into bars at mint price.  all this would have done was to try to stop raw gold from leaving the country, and since the Mint paid about as well as anyone else, why ship it out raw?  The only other thing it would have done was reduced the use of raw gold as an item of exchange.  The gold would have still been mined and then turned over to the government district agent instead of taking the trouble to transport it to the mint for the same price.  If you get the same money either way, let the government have the headache of transport, and run the risk of theft.

[RWB]

Sixteen dollars an ounce for raw gold dust was the value agreed on by San Francisco merchants and miners. Nearly all recognized that California native gold cold not be refined to anything close to 0.998 with a facilities available. Some also understood about the platinum and iridium content that skewed the "pure gold" weight upward.

Fremont's proposal was intended to prevent export of placer gold to London, where better prices could be obtained than at Philadelphia. Opening of the Assay Office of Gold in San Francisco and then the NY Assay Office, cut out most of the foreign shipment and resulted in lots of Canadian and Australian gold coming the the US.

[Conder101]

OK, for some reason I misread the date of the bill and thought it was 1857, which would have made it AFTER the assay office and later mint was opened

[jtryka]

Where does the 0.998 come from?  Gold coins were only .900 fine, and the reference was to "crude gold, with its usual alloy" so likely something that was in the range of 90%.  The worst part about this proposed bill is the bureaucratic interference in normal commerce.  Often in mining towns of the west, gold dust was traded like currency (no comment on the scruples of those accepting the dust and the values they placed on it) so a law like this would make it illegal and force those miners to meet up with some insufficiently_thoughtful_person bureaucrat just to be paid for the result of his labor.

[RWB]

In 1850 0.998 fine gold was considered good enough for "fine gold" delivery. The buyer paid for 0.998, not 1.000, but that was OK and the expense of going to really pure 0.999 or 0.9999 was too much for the commercial market to sustain. When the Philadelphia Mint made 1.000 fine proof gold - used for calibrating and checking assays - it charged the other mints 2 or 3 times the actual gold value. In London, refining was a private business and the Bank of England bought only pure bars and 22 karat (0.917) bars, the latter for the Royal Mint.

[VKurtB]

15 hours ago, RWB said:

In 1850 0.998 fine gold was considered good enough for "fine gold" delivery. The buyer paid for 0.998, not 1.000, but that was OK and the expense of going to really pure 0.999 or 0.9999 was too much for the commercial market to sustain. When the Philadelphia Mint made 1.000 fine proof gold - used for calibrating and checking assays - it charged the other mints 2 or 3 times the actual gold value. In London, refining was a private business and the Bank of England bought only pure bars and 22 karat (0.917) bars, the latter for the Royal Mint.

Enter "The Trial of the Pyx".

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Enter "The Trial of the Pyx".

Here's an oldie for ya:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0PDsBl2rDVfQEEA4XTBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=trial+pf+the+pyx&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtrial%2Bpf%2Bthe%2Bpyx%26ei%3DUTF-8&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.SZLqWwDjrEmWVEVc74gTnwEsDh%26amp%3Bpid%3DApi%26w%3D144%26h%3D77%26c%3D7&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkf3fFeb4C4s&tit=TRIAL+OF+THE+PYX&l=79&vid=f193f53c1b9d56c1425fc433b8596ef7&sigr=RDZL2Mtie6ed&sigb=quowD3NZmfd2&sigt=t8t65szdfqbp&sigi=LmO8MQ44Cml8&_guc_consent_skip=1597353116

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by Zebo

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Here's an oldie for ya:

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0PDsBl2rDVfQEEA4XTBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=trial+pf+the+pyx&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtrial%2Bpf%2Bthe%2Bpyx%26ei%3DUTF-8&turl=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOVP.SZLqWwDjrEmWVEVc74gTnwEsDh%26amp%3Bpid%3DApi%26w%3D144%26h%3D77%26c%3D7&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dkf3fFeb4C4s&tit=TRIAL+OF+THE+PYX&l=79&vid=f193f53c1b9d56c1425fc433b8596ef7&sigr=RDZL2Mtie6ed&sigb=quowD3NZmfd2&sigt=t8t65szdfqbp&sigi=LmO8MQ44Cml8&_guc_consent_skip=1597353116

 

 

Hey! How'd you get my password?

[GoldFinger1969]

When was gold set at $20.67/oz. ?

[Conder101]

1834

Act of June 28, 1834

Edited August 14, 2020 by Conder101

[RWB]

5 hours ago, Conder101 said:

1834

Act of June 28, 1834

Became effective August 1. The Philadelphia Mint actually reminded preferred depositors to hold their gold until after the first, when they would get more dollars for the same weight.