Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,122 posts in this topic

I've posted about hoards here before and especially these "mini-hoards" that I see being referred to anectdotally without any corroborating evidence.  Still, the people posting about them in articles or blogs (like Doug Winter) have reputations that I don't think they would just willy-nilly make up information or regurgitate what 1 person only told them.  You would assume they'd look for independent confirmation via a 2nd source and/or look to see if market prices indicate a sudden increase in supply.  Or maybe their contacts and sources have proved reliable over the years and that's just it. (thumbsu

An esteemed contributor here noted a recent source for these mini-hoards:  unclaimed safe deposit boxes (SDBs) held by banks and escheated to cities/states.  Sometimes the coins are certified/graded; often they are raw and within the expected grade range.  I don't know how often these auctions of unclaimed property/SDBs happen but you clearly have a few dozen to a few hundred coins annually running the gamut from generic common Saints in the AU's or lower grades, up to MS65 (raw or graded) as well as some scarce coins and rare ones (a few hundred total survivors).  Who knows, maybe we'll find ultra-rare ones hitting the market worth 6-figures even in AU condition.  

You probably have similar lost property disposals over in Europe, too.

I would guess that maybe you have children/families/beneficiaries of inhereritances who just want a few coins or maybe a few dozen coins sold.  I have a few family/friends who have a few dozen (mostly common) Saints/Liberty coins and I can attest their wills do NOT specify that the coins be sold via auction or through a dealer or collector or other expert.  Basically, the inheritors are on their own and will probably just go to a coin dealer rather than seek out an expert and delay a sale a few months just to squeeze out a few more thousand dollars or so. 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Wow... I just checked this chat Board... no new entries since September 23rd?

Anyway... Roger, do you have any news about projects you are working on?  Any new books or revisions coming out soon?

 

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The main project is researching reality for restrikes, novodels, pattern distribution, etc. It's going to take a long time. So much confusion, assumption, blind guesses in the past that the truth is deeply buried - if it can even be dug up.

Short term, I've written three little articles on half cent proofs (1840-1848 period). Some of the restrike research will likely also produce articles - but I might write them, then allow them to "age" a little while I gather more information.

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On 10/25/2021 at 2:57 PM, Ross J said:

Wow... I just checked this chat Board... no new entries since September 23rd?

Anyway... Roger, do you have any news about projects you are working on?  Any new books or revisions coming out soon?  

Don't forget a bunch of us were out of commission and unable to access the NGC Boards for 1-2 weeks. xD

A few people have bought the book in the last few months, I'm hoping they will chime in soon.  I have posted pricing and auction developments for Saints in a separate thread to try and keep this thread more focused on just talking about the book and related topics. 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/19/2021 at 12:58 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

FYI.....MS67 1927 Saint just sold for $16,500/$18,500 (w/bp) over at GC.  30% boost over prices 12-18 months ago.

That's quite a price for one of the most common DE in the world.

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On 11/19/2021 at 7:23 PM, RWB said:

That's quite a price for one of the most common DE in the world.

Indeed it is.  And 1927s are so common.  When I worked at the coin shop, pretty much anytime someone brought in a double eagle it was a 1924, a 1927 or a 1928.  If it wasn't one of those, then the chances were good it was a 1904 Liberty Head.  Roger, which one would you say is the absolute most common double eagle?  I've read different sources and some say 1924, some say 1927 and some say 1928.  Based on my experience working at the coin shop, my vote is with the 1924, but I'd like to hear your input on this issue, of course.

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On 11/20/2021 at 10:18 AM, RWB said:

I think it varies slightly with condition. My experience is that 1927 is the most common in highest grades, but that 1924 or 28 are more common numerically. All three mostly pop-up with bullion value changes, but I'm not aware of any single, or small group of sources. Dispersal-Accumulation is not possible to track or predict.

These Philadelphia Mint coins are common because they were the only ones released in quantity -- D and S coins were struck then stored as backing for gold certificates.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for your input on that.  It's truly fascinating!! I appreciate your answer greatly :) 

~Tom

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On 11/20/2021 at 10:18 AM, RWB said:

I think it varies slightly with condition. My experience is that 1927 is the most common in highest grades, but that 1924 or 28 are more common numerically. All three mostly pop-up with bullion value changes, but I'm not aware of any single, or small group of sources. Dispersal-Accumulation is not possible to track or predict.

These Philadelphia Mint coins are common because they were the only ones released in quantity -- D and S coins were struck then stored as backing for gold certificates.

Although lately I'm seeing a higher premium for 1928 coins relative to 1924 coins in the same grade in unc. 

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On 11/20/2021 at 12:41 PM, olympicsos said:

Although lately I'm seeing a higher premium for 1928 coins relative to 1924 coins in the same grade in unc. 

These are common bullion. Any "premium" is mostly related to individual coins and buyer/seller transaction reporting. (If someone wants 1,000 DE, I can get you a much better price that you'll see in print. OK...but what are you going to do with them? Bracelets for your "friends?" Fancy bath tub drain stoppers? Individual canapé holders?)

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On 11/20/2021 at 10:18 AM, RWB said:

I think it varies slightly with condition.

And that's why I think that 1927 sold for that much....not many 67's come up for sale for any of them, but they might be rarer for the 1927 (I have to check the population tables).

And you're right to focus on condition rarity for the 1924, 1927, and 1928.  I'll see how much other 67's sell for and we'll see if there's separation.

FWIW, I see a 1924 MS67 going begging (no bids) at $12K and a 1928 MS67 going bidless at $14,500, both on GC...same place the 1927 sold.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 11/21/2021 at 6:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

FWIW, I see a 1924 MS67 going begging (no bids) at $12K and a 1928 MS67 going bidless at $14,500, both on GC...same place the 1927 sold.

Probably because the guy who bought the 1927, and may have wanted (or already had) either or both the 1924 and 1928, was sidelined by an exhaustion of available funds. 🤔  Sometimes when it rains, it pours.

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How many (properly graded) MS 67 Saints can there be?  Not that many I imagine.  I would expect a type collector who is only going to buy one "with motto" Saint, and is condition conscious, is likely to be willing to pay a high price.  Saints are very baggy in general, so nice ones with no distracting gashes on liberty's shin or flatness in the face seem hard to come by... even in 65.  Just my experience.   When you do find one that "pops" ... sharp strike, minimal marks, great color and luster ... they are sights to behold!

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Samples from hoards accumulations, documentation and ship wrecks indicate that DE were of MS 65-66 on average upon leaving a US Mint. A bag of 250 pieces might span a condition range similar to a bag of silver dollars that had received similar handling....Unc 63 to 67/68.

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On 11/26/2021 at 11:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Probably because the guy who bought the 1927, and may have wanted (or already had) either or both the 1924 and 1928, was sidelined by an exhaustion of available funds. 🤔  Sometimes when it rains, it pours.

No doubt, very possible even likely...HOWEVER....the price differential between what the 1927 sold for in a competitive acution (multiple bidders) and the other 2 coins in the same condition not getting ANY bids for 12% and 24% lower, respectively, is a bit surprising given the same time period and same auction location.

Need to check the population numbers for that grade and those years and also see future sales at GC and HA.

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I do not know the first thing about auctions having never participated in one, but what was the reserve price, if disclosed, on the 1924 and 1928, respectively, and does the fact it was not reached in both cases have any effect on FMV?

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On 11/28/2021 at 4:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not know the first thing about auctions having never participated in one, but what was the reserve price, if disclosed, on the 1924 and 1928, respectively, and does the fact it was not reached in both cases have any effect on FMV?

The minimum price wasn't reached -- no bids.  Here they are:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1029487/1928-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1053938/1924-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

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@GoldFinger1969

You're exceedingly kind and most helpful, as always.  I know I have posed this question before elsewhere but would like to solicit your reply:  if all this information is available to any potential buyer -- every gold rooster I have purchased was accompanied by crystal clear photos of the encapsulated coin, front and back -- why do some members persist in blacking out certification numbers?

It has been a long time since I have added a coin to my Set Registry here at NGC, but it is (or was) not possible to do so on the left coast without either a release from the previous owner or no response after three days. (I would hasten the process by providing them with a copy of the paid invoice.)  Anyway, what is it these collectors know that I don't?   🤔 

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On 11/28/2021 at 10:57 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

why do some members persist in blacking out certification numbers?

I think it's because the posting of the numbers can sometimes aid in slab or coin fraud using legit certification numbers but illegitimate slabs/coins.  I think NGC's site even restricts random look ups of certification numbers unless you are a member. 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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@GoldFinger1969

Thanks, again.  I believe I have  developed an affliction, setregisetrantium psychosis, which renders a coin collector unable to accept any encapsulation without full disclosure and transparency.  To borrow a phrase from the Hon. @VKurtB, seeing a slab which failed to cross-grade, which I personally re-examined via the photos provided and concurred with the call to reject as unsuitable, placed promptly back on eBay as if nothing untoward happened, "makes my blood boil." There are scores of collectors who have avoided that coin like the plague, and rightly so. But every time I search for excellence and see that certification number [engraved on my mind] jump out at me, it upsets me that nothing can be done about it. With DE routinely going for exponentially higher prices than GR, I would be curious to know if you have encountered this problem, and if so, whether an antidote for it has been developed. 🐓 

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On 11/29/2021 at 8:41 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969

Thanks, again.  I believe I have  developed an affliction, setregisetrantium psychosis, which renders a coin collector unable to accept any encapsulation without full disclosure and transparency.  To borrow a phrase from the Hon. @VKurtB, seeing a slab which failed to cross-grade, which I personally re-examined via the photos provided and concurred with the call to reject as unsuitable, placed promptly back on eBay as if nothing untoward happened, "makes my blood boil." There are scores of collectors who have avoided that coin like the plague, and rightly so. But every time I search for excellence and see that certification number [engraved on my mind] jump out at me, it upsets me that nothing can be done about it. With DE routinely going for exponentially higher prices than GR, I would be curious to know if you have encountered this problem, and if so, whether an antidote for it has been developed. 🐓 

...there is no antidote for a non-poison, failure to cross-over is not an indicator of unsuitability...more akin to two diff diagnoses of the same malady, in this instance usually has little to no regard to the coin in question, more likely its an issue of politics or hypothetical standards...so what it really comes down to is in fact a matter of choosing ur "poison" ...P or N registries...

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MS67 Population Census for Saints:  Someone asked how many MS67's were there.....a total of 1,346 across all 3 Types from PCGS with 41 plus coins and 120 higher; NGC has 1,961 at MS67 or higher.

1924.......PCGS:  132 (includes +) .....1 higher.....   NGC:  216 and 3

1926.......PCGS:  5 (none higher)............                NGC:  9 and 0

1927.......PCGS:   33 (includes +).......1 higher....    NGC:  62 and 0

1928.......PCGS;  113 (none higher)..........              NGC:  103 and 0

I'm sure there is lots of double counting so maybe reduce the numbers by 30-40% ?

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On 12/6/2021 at 10:21 AM, Ross J said:

Just a note... there were also quite a few highly graded 1908's from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" ... 

Yeah....but they were all found in that nasty well in Fargo, ND, so could there be water damage or maybe algae?

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On 12/6/2021 at 10:21 AM, Ross J said:

Just a note... there were also quite a few highly graded 1908's from the "Wells Fargo Hoard" ... 

Of the 907 PCGS (915 with +) 1908 No Motto MS67's....804 are Wells Fargo and 103 non-WF....so the population went up an extraordinary 8-fold with that hoard.  Of the MS68's, you were at 3 and 99 WF for a total of 102.  Imagine owning one of those and seeing the population expand 30-fold !! :o  Finally, all 10 MS69's are WF -- there were no other MS69's previously.

For the NGC population census.....320 MS67 1908 NM's......and 879 WF MS67's......for MS68 No Mottos, it's 16 regular and 144 Wells Fargo.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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