Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

What did each examiner see? What was the relevance of what they saw? Did they all See-Saw up and down, or merely run in circles 'round the mulberry bush?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/5/2021 at 9:11 PM, VKurtB said:

What I learned is that none of the 14 I’ve seen are particularly eye grabbing. There are no truly gaudy grades in any of them. Even the Smithsonian pieces are rather “meh”.

No argument, the MCMVII UHRs are much nicer coins.  Even the 1907 HR's.

But they are rare coins and a piece of history.

[zadok]

On 8/5/2021 at 8:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Gentlemen, don't give me that malarkey!

New York is one of those states where claiming a state lottery cash prize -- which has routinely made the most expensive coins ever sold on this planet seem like chump change in comparison -- is subject to the laws of the state and its lottery rules and regulations.  While every ticket sold is a "bearer instrument," it does not explicitly state the bearer cannot claim the prize anonymously or with a modicum of confidentiality.

Billions of dollars have been so dispensed, without incident. (Kindly do not refer to the series of tragedies which ensued after Jack Whittaker won his ill-fated Powerball ticket in West Virginia. That was primarily of his own making.)

There is suspicion which, if left unchecked, may develop into paranoia.  Simple but notable transactions of gems and jewelry in the millions of dollars are conducted routinely every day and concluded with nothing more complicated than a handshake, the equivalent of Paulie giving his brother Toody the nod in the film Goodfellas.

My sincere apologies to my fellow member @GoldFinger1969 for  obliterating his thread much the way the D'autremont brothers wreaked havoc on the Southern Pacific line in 1923.

We're not talking about buying or selling; we're talking about a routine viewing by a qualified member anointed one of the 100 most influential men in Numismatics.  Any suggestion to the contrary alluding to security concerns flies flatly in the face of a need to know and an element of surprise.  What we have here is a wholesome case of carefully crafted hooey.

To My Cousin Vinny:  I hope you recall this column the next time someone tells you, "We have what you want, but cannot let you see it."

anointed....oily....i find that appropriate in this context....kudos....

[VKurtB]

Quintus needs to understand that not everywhere is New York. In Pennsylvania, lottery winners MUST BY LAW be publicly identified. (Caveat: when I left there was a legislator who wanted to change that, and he was circulating a cosponsorship memo for the new bill in the new session.) And in my new home state, there IS NO LOTTERY. (Also subject of legislation.) No state lottery, no casino gambling, no nothing. And my new hometown is NEVER grubbing for more revenue. I go to almost every city council meeting and they are in constant SURPLUS. Municipalities DO get approximately half of the sales tax revenue, and liquor taxes, however. People drink here, too. A lot. You should see the carnage at the beer aisle on a Sunday morning. Oooo-weeee-doggies! My wife’s extended family are probably supporting half the state.

My new home city government actually THINKS. The tornado sirens were breaking down. Too expensive to fix. So they took them all down, sold the remaining working ones, plus replacement parts, to another town, and with the money they bought NOAA weather radios and gave them to whomever wanted one…. GRATIS! They turned a PROFIT.

Edited August 6, 2021 by VKurtB

[RAJ on COINS]

On 8/3/2021 at 11:12 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I have a user name, my wife and I are 66 and 70 respectively, live in a high-crime neighborhood, and leave all my windows -- and front door unlocked.  I am content.

You must have a big dog.

[RWB]

Quintus' "domitus" was leading the cohort that caught Spartacus.

Edited August 7, 2021 by RWB
Correct typos

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 8:22 PM, Ross J said:

You must have a big dog.

No pets or children are allowed and anyone coming in must get past "Security" or the "concierge" as he prefers to be called.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:23 PM, RWB said:

Quintus' "domitus" was leading the cohort that caught Sparticus.

[Gotcha RWB!  That's the one and only Spartacus. Two a's, no i]  

[Mr.Bill347]

This has been far more interesting than the men’s Olympic basketball final!

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969

My apologies and sincere gratitude for your forbearance in allowing all these tangential rail spurs.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/6/2021 at 8:22 PM, Ross J said:

You must have a big dog. 

Or he lives on the 20th floor......

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/6/2021 at 11:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969

My apologies and sincere gratitude for your forbearance in allowing all these tangential rail spurs.  

Not at all.....they're actually not off-tangents.....they continue to strengthen my argument:  the government MUST return the 1933 Saints back to their respective owners !!  

 

[RWB]

Do any of those who examined multiple 1933 DE have observations beyond mere "condition?" Thus far, it seems not.

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB

One analogy that comes to mind has a sommelier approach a couple sitting at a table of the St. Regis, white starched towel on his forearm, removing a vintage bottle of wine from a silver bucket of ice, removing the cork, presenting it to the seated gentleman to appraise it with his olfactory senses, obtaining his approval and pouring the wine into two proper wine glasses without allowing the bottle to touch them, the gentleman lifting the glass to his lips to catch the scent of its bouquet with subtle fruity notes and nodding his approval.

The other scenario involves a Bowery bum who orders a cheap bottle of rotgut, opens the bottle with his teeth, disposing of its contents in one long, noisy chug-a-lug gulp, burping loudly, and wiping his mouth off with the back of his fist.

The difference between a wine connoisseur -- and a common wino.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2021 at 8:37 AM, RWB said:

Do any of those who examined multiple 1933 DE have observations beyond mere "condition?" Thus far, it seems not.

You mean maybe focusing on distinguishing marks.....luster....strike ?  

Since the only opportunity for most to look at "multiple 1933's" involves the 2 government coins and not up-close...there aren't that many people who've had the chance to do that, I would think.  The Langbord Coins have mostly been staying at Fort Knox exept for a few days at the ANA Money Show....the 2018 appearance at the PA coin show....the Farouk-Weitzman Coin when publicly displayed or on auction....that's about it off the top of my head.

And unlike the MCMVII UHR's and HR's and 1929-32 "Fab Five" coins.....no really great hi-def pics of the 1933's.  Or at least that I have uncovered.

Best analysis, pics, and descriptions were in your book and I think a CoinWeek article detailing the coins which I think was posted earlier in this thread.

Edited August 7, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Research Note:  I am trying to create another thread to post Saint/Double Eagle research that is in PDF or Word formats.  However, the NGC Message Boards do NOT currently support such file types.  I have reached out to NGC members here and will report back. 

I thought a separate thread is best because research and comments would get lost in this more-active thread which is approaching 50 pages.   They'll be easier to find and access in a shorter thread that is more for posting links, articles, and research than the back-and-forth we have here. 

Again, I'll need NGCs help as PDF/Word docs currently can't be posted here for some reason.

Edited August 7, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:47 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You mean maybe focusing on distinguishing marks.....luster....strike ?  

No. That is all superficial stuff. To read some of the boasts made in earlier messages, one would think the posters had actually done more than take a casual look at the 1933s. I refer to important die differences, if any, and how they relate to the production, handling, distribution, storage, and destruction of the coins from 1933 through the 1950s. Surface condition is meaningless if one wants to answer the real questions.

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

research that is in PDF or Word formats

Few message boards accept such direct posts. A few will permit attachments and links, but for the latter you need an on-line storage place for the originals.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:17 PM, RWB said:

Few message boards accept such direct posts. A few will permit attachments and links, but for the latter you need an on-line storage place for the originals.

Most message boards I belong to -- including coin ones -- DO accept PDFs and Word docs.  It's actually pictures that can take up more space, it takes lots of text/words/pages to be the same file size as a high-def or raw pic of a coin.

If I have to use DropBox or something like that, that would be my poor 2nd option.

BTW, the "research" is more compendiums of articles, commentaries, research links, etc (esp. from the Heritage Archives)....don't want to confuse it with the type of research you do, Roger.  But I still think it will be of interest to Saint/Double Eagle afficionados.

Edited August 7, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:12 PM, RWB said:

No. That is all superficial stuff. To read some of the boasts made in earlier messages, one would think the posters had actually done more than take a casual look at the 1933s. I refer to important die differences, if any, and how they relate to the production, handling, distribution, storage, and destruction of the coins from 1933 through the 1950s.

Well, 99.999% were melted down in 1937 and you only had a handful that were confiscated later and destoyed (I wonder if there was proof of their destruction ?  Could you imagine if a coin was swapped out and preserved !!??  ).

How would die differences impact the destruction of the bulk of the 1933's in 1937 or the other coins confiscated from 1947-1955 ?

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, 99.999% were melted down in 1937 and you only had a handful that were confiscated later and destoyed (I wonder if there was proof of their destruction ?  Could you imagine if a coin was swapped out and preserved !!??  ).

How would die differences impact the destruction of the bulk of the 1933's in 1937 or the other coins confiscated from 1947-1955 ?

There are affidavits of destruction. I have copies.

Coins were not merely wacked off then dumped in bags, as some might to assume. Samples for assay and testing were taken according to specific regulations, and used in specific ways by assayers, the coiner and others. If one knows how the system was supposed to work, and also how it actually worked in 1932 and 1933, one can identify the source of coins by carefully examining the die information imparted to each coin when it is struck. If those who claim to have "examined" the DE in question had actually done so, they would know this - but it seems all they got out of the opportunity was trivial stuff such as "condition."

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:12 AM, RWB said:

No. That is all superficial stuff. To read some of the boasts made in earlier messages, one would think the posters had actually done more than take a casual look at the 1933s. I refer to important die differences, if any, and how they relate to the production, handling, distribution, storage, and destruction of the coins from 1933 through the 1950s. Surface condition is meaningless if one wants to answer the real questions.

Let me make this clear for now and for all time - I COMPLETELY DO NOT CARE! Except for three, they are all contraband and in my opinion could just as well be melted. Only the two Smithsonian pieces and the Farouk/Fenton/Weitzman/New Guy pieces matter even a tiny little bit. Clear? The mere existence of the other 11 frankly ticks me off a little.

Edited August 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2021 at 4:50 PM, VKurtB said:

The mere existence of the other 11 frankly ticks me off a little.

OK, got it.....just for that I'm not getting you one for your birthday !  

Edited August 7, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, got it.....just for that I'm not getting you one for your birthday !  

If you did, I'd turn it over to the Treasury Department.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/7/2021 at 4:50 PM, VKurtB said:

Let me make this clear for now and for all time - I COMPLETELY DO NOT CARE! Except for three, they are all contraband and in my opinion could just as well be melted. Only the two Smithsonian pieces and the Farouk/Fenton/Weitzman/New Guy pieces matter even a tiny little bit. Clear? The mere existence of the other 11 frankly ticks me off a little.

Are you sure you weren't a prison guard in your former life?  WHO CARES?  (Psst!  If you're interested in owning your very own '33 for your own personal satisfaction...)  🐓

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:35 PM, VKurtB said:

If you did, I'd turn it over to the Treasury Department.

And if you did that, you'd have some 'splainin' to do not to mention the possibility of arrest on a Federal rap.

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 8:07 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Are you sure you weren't a prison guard in your former life?  WHO CARES?  (Psst!  If you're interested in owning your very own '33 for your own personal satisfaction...)  🐓

I WAS a state government employee (legislative staff) for 13 years, and a county Director of Elections for 4 more. Ethics is a big thing for me. Nothing more important. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 9:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

And if you did that, you'd have some 'splainin' to do not to mention the possibility of arrest on a Federal rap.

Not at all. They’ll take back all remaining 33DE’s pretty much no questions asked. If they have to come to YOU for it, expect a bad experience. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Not at all. They’ll take back all remaining 33DE’s pretty much no questions asked. If they have to come to YOU for it, expect a bad experience. 

Just curious, since you are big on ethics....do you think it was ethical of the Mint and Treasury to engage in settlement talks with the Langbords and then cease once they were given the coins for authentication purposes only ?  How about threatening to arrest Roy Langbord, clearly an intimidation ploy (which backfired when the NYU Law Graduate gave them his credentials) ?

How about threatening Fenton with jail time after the Waldorf sting when maybe they should have found the Export License themselves which rendered their entire argument baloney ?

Edited August 8, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just curious, since you are big on ethics....do you think it was ethical of the Mint and Treasury to engage in settlement talks with the Langbords and then cease once they were given the coins for authentication purposes only ?  How about threatening to arrest Roy Langbord, clearly an intimidation ploy (which backfired when the NYU Law Graduate gave them his credentials) ?

How about threatening Fenton with jail time after the Waldorf sting when maybe they should have found the Export License themselves which rendered their entire argument baloney ?

All of it is standard operating procedure for government lawyers of ALL types. Their attitude is that THEY are on salary, and YOU have to pay by the hour. They can bury you in expenses. It’s used as a cudgel in ALL cases. 
 

Right now, a quasi-governmental agency has announced a program that has already been clearly ruled unconstitutional by the United States Supreme Court. Their attitude is, “Good luck getting standing, but if you do, come sue us.” Typical for government lawyers. All they know is intimidation tactics. It’s a gamed system. And the same goes for ANY level of government that has litigators on staff, not just the feds.

I once saw the City of Philadelphia stare down the USDOJ. Both sets of lawyers were on salary and Philly’s were better and meaner than the USDOJ’s.

Edited August 8, 2021 by VKurtB