Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

"458.1" was the total scrap bullion forwarded and it included the defective 1932 coins.

I don't know how many copies were printed or distributed. The printing was done by Heritage's catalog printing contractor.

[GoldFinger1969]

19 minutes ago, Ross J said:

And YES, i like the 2009 UHR and think it is the coolest thing the mint has ever done for collectors, even making them in sufficient quantity so everyone who wanted one, while they were available, could get one.  Thank you Ed Moy!     

Agreed, I have an OGB from the Mint but will look to buy a PF70 or maybe PF69 at a future coin show.

Great sentiments and information, Ross, on the die varieties.  You said alot but I agree with all of it.  Keep up the good work, I might not be in the same league as you, Roger, and the Cherrypickers....but I'm following you at a comfortable distance. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

I don't know how many copies were printed or distributed. The printing was done by Heritage's catalog printing contractor.

Thanks....they use a good printer, I was very impressed when I saw (grabbed, too ) a few of their books at the FUN conference earlier this year.  Same quality paper in your book.

Edited May 30, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

Here is (a hasty) 22 S "slashed 2" image...

[RAJ on COINS]

23 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

... I might not be in the same league as you, Roger, and the Cherrypickers....but I'm following you at a comfortable distance. 

Were all just geeks having fun. Few of us can afford all the coins we want.  I have to do SOMETHING while I'm not collecting 27 D's or '33's!  And yes...social distancing!

[GoldFinger1969]

5 hours ago, Ross J said:

Were all just geeks having fun. Few of us can afford all the coins we want.  I have to do SOMETHING while I'm not collecting 27 D's or '33's!  And yes...social distancing!

They auctioned a 1927-D at FUN.  It was GREAT -- really electrified the whole room and there was a buzz leading up to the event.  That's one of the reasons why I hoped the 1933's would be available.

Have you attended any of the big national shows ?  FUN was my 1st big national show.  It's just been locals before that.

[GoldFinger1969]

Ross, what does all that verbiage on the NGC holder mean ?  Some of it is totally new to me.

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, Ross J said:

And YES, i like the 2009 UHR and think it is the coolest thing the mint has ever done for collectors, even making them in sufficient quantity so everyone who wanted one, while they were available, could get one.  Thank you Ed Moy!  

What do you think about a 2 ounce UHR ?  The coin's thickness and dimensions meant it is really small diameter-wise.....I see other mints around the world and many have 2 oz. gold coins (some even 5 ounce !).

I think a 2 ounce gold coin could find a market....you could certainly make it a 34 mm size like the original Saints.  I wonder if there's a way to ask if this has been discussed by the CACC ?

Edited May 30, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

I do attend most major shows (Winter FUN, 3 Whitman Expos in Baltimore, ANA shows when I can.)  

1922 S Slashed 2 $20 (Date/Mint/Variety name/Denomination)

VP-002 (VarietyPlus designation for that date/mint/denomination)  VP-001 for the 1922-S is Roger's Filed Die Variety.

MS-62 (Mint State 62... but I'm sure you know about grading!)

DISCOVERY COIN (descriptive line... sometimes they mention the coin's provenance, i.e. if the coin was in an important collection, it might say "Ex. Eliasberg") 

lastly, the NGC certification number.

You can read CCAC transcripts on the mint's website.  I believe Roger was a CCAC member at some point.  Sometimes they have public meetings.  The Mint also has "forums" in the fall, usually in Philadelphia or D.C.

My experience is they listen to what collectors say, and then do what they were going to do anyhow.  I've given them many (i thought) good suggestions and critiques.  They are somewhat hamstrung by congress and the beauracracy as far as what they can and can't discuss.  The Mint Director influences alot of the decisions that are "creative", as Moy did with the 2009 UHR.  Ryder has other agendas, like targeting kids with "merry minters" animated characters.  Not what I would be doing...but they haven't asked me!

A two ounce gold coin would cost more than $3400 melt, probably $4000 they way they price things.  They have enough trouble with the less expensive "stuff" they produce.

Another nice coin is the Palladium 1 oz.... a high relief large "Mercury Dime" that is quite striking (pun intended!)  The mint still has inventory of the 2019 reverse proof, which is a beautiful coin.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Ross J said:

A two ounce gold coin would cost more than $3400 melt, probably $4000 they way they price things.  They have enough trouble with the less expensive "stuff" they produce.

Thanks for the Dime pics and the comments.  All good !

Yeah, I know a 2 oz. coin would cost...but check out the 2 oz. Wedge-Tailed Eagle Australian coins (let me know if you can't find one).  It's alot bigger and the nature of the UHR format of the 2009 plus the thickness meant it was small.  I think doubling (or maybe going to 2.5 oz.) would really allow the diameter to get back to the Saint 34 mm size and you'd see the beauty in the coin alot easier. 

Those Wedge-Tailed Eagle Gold & Silver coins -- 1 oz. to 5 oz. -- are REALLY beautiful. 

I think a small run would sell out.  It's like buying two 1-oz coins.  Certainly, the mass demand won't be there but I think you can probably justify a 30,000 - 50,000 run.

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Zebo]

On May 29, 2020 at 7:55 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

On May 29, 2020 at 7:33 PM,  Ross J said: 

And YES, i like the 2009 UHR and think it is the coolest thing the mint has ever done for collectors, even making them in sufficient quantity so everyone who wanted one, while they were available, could get one.  Thank you Ed Moy!  

 

Agreed, I have an OGB from the Mint but will look to buy a PF70 or maybe PF69 at a future coin show.

Just to wet your appetite GF:

[GoldFinger1969]

Nice Zebo ....what grade ?  And the obverse ?

[RAJ on COINS]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Those Wedge-Tailed Eagle Gold & Silver coins -- 1 oz. to 5 oz. -- are REALLY beautiful. 

 

Yes. John Mercanti, former U.S. Mint Chief Engraver did those for Australia.  (He and his wife Marianne are among my favorite "coin" friends.)   John also did alot of work on the Ultra High Relief, adapting the designs from Saint Gaudens original plasters.  The size was smaller than a conventional double eagle (actually the diameter of a Ten Dollar Eagle but double thick).  That was originally tried as an experiment back in 1907 by the mint...using two ten dollar planchets.  The laws at the time prohibited issuing double eagles with those dimensions, so all were melted except two, which are in the Smithsonian.  They have long been favorite oddities of coin collectors.  in 2009, it was done to better facilitate "metal flow" that the high relief design required.  Pure gold was also used (instead of 90% used in 1907) for the same reasons.  The goal was to bring up all of the details with the fewest number of strikes from the press.  I agree the larger format would have looked cooler with easier to see designs, but those little UHR's are pretty neat as they are!  

[RAJ on COINS]

[GoldFinger1969]

Great commentary and analysis, Ross....I remember reading about that years ago.  Nice pics !!

I think the 2009 UHR is 27 mm in diameter, Saints were just a shade over 34 mm.  So you are talking a bit over 1/4" wider.

I'd really love a 34 mm coin with 2 ounces of gold in ultra-high relief.

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

RE: "That was originally tried as an experiment back in 1907 by the mint...using two ten dollar planchets.  The laws at the time prohibited issuing double eagles with those dimensions, so all were melted except two, which are in the Smithsonian."

A couple of minor corrections. The small diameter double eagles were the diameter of the Eagle and the thickness of two Eagle planchets before striking. They were made from two Eagle planchets stacked then struck. Net thickness was much greater than two Eagles because the die radius was short and multiple blows raised the edge.

The law did not prohibit experimental, pattern or other test pieces. Contrary to Curator Comparette's incorrect assertion. It was that ignorant and not verified comment from Comparette that caused the Mint Director to call in and destroy all small diameter DE except the two piece for the Mint Cabinet of Coins and Medals.

I realize they are small points, but accuracy is critical to understanding the situation in 1907 or today.

[GoldFinger1969]

Why were the laws so specific on coingage?  Why would Congress CARE about whether a DE was a completely new design or whether it was 2 older Eagles (planchets) stacked together ?

Heck, as I recall it was the Mint, the Treasury Secretary, and Teddy R. who ultimately decided what the coin would look like, Congress never has an input.  They could have had a Bison or a Fish on the back of the coin and I don't think Congress would have been able to do anything about it.  That would seem to me to be more important than whether the coin had a certain thickness, was from 1 or 2 planchets, etc.

I understand the conflict between an outsider (Saint-Gaudens) and the #1 guy at the Mint (Barber) on new coinage.  Even if a previous technical prohibition existed on how the coin was made (i.e., 2 planchets), would anybody (Congress) really have cared if Teddy R., ASG, and Barber all gave it a thumbs-up ?

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

The law did not prohibit experimental, pattern or other test pieces. Contrary to Curator Comparette's incorrect assertion. It was that ignorant and not verified comment from Comparette that caused the Mint Director to call in and destroy all small diameter DE except the two piece for the Mint Cabinet of Coins and Medals.

Why did those guys THINK the law would require that ?  What was the harm in leaving them alone and maybe Saint-Gaudens or another Mint employee got to take them home ?

These guys acted like they were top-secret invasion plans to defend against the Kaiser and needed to be destroyed once they looked at them.

It's hard to believe that these guys were designing the 1st DE in 50+ years and nobody bothered to think "Hey, this happens once every 50 years, maybe we should save everything for posterity."

Too bad for us.  

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Zebo]

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Nice Zebo ....what grade ?  And the obverse ?

It is a MS70 - I only posted the reverse, because I like it better than the obverse. The Flying Eagle cent is another favorite of mine. Ross's photos of the UHR are much better than my iPhone photos - but here is the obverse.

[GoldFinger1969]

I was surprised but not that many 2009 UHRs at FUN 2020 as I would have thought.  I didn't mind, once I got familiar with the table setup I had plenty of other stuff to look at.  The few pieces I saw that I liked were very pricey, the other ones were in a slab or had a grade I wasn't thrilled with.  Oh well, no rush I said so I'm still looking....

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

Thanks Roger!  Appreciate any and all corrections!

Regarding the 1907 patterns, I find it fascinating that the striking force of the press had the effect of "welding" the two eagle planchets into a single coin.  I have seen the survivors at the Smithsonian.  Your book provides a wonderful illustration (page 19) of the edges of the early development efforts with the designs.  The small diameter (wide edge) coin shows no apparent visual evidence that two blanks were merged into one.  Maybe it's nothing unusual to a metallurgist, but I think it is interesting.  I wonder if other metals do that?  (I'm aware of examples of error coins where more than one planchet are struck together without the welding "effect" occurring.)  Perhaps the mint's deliberate intention on the part of the gold coin experiment dictated some mechanical adjustments to obtain the desired outcome.  Anyway, I just think it is cool!   

That edge photo illustrates another interesting fact.  When I first observed a 2009 UHR up close, I thought perhaps the mint on it's own initiative selected a modern no-serif font for the edge lettering.  I see from the illustration and your text that the font used on the modern version was actually true to the original pattern's sans-serif font!

I'd like to see the mint issue a modern version of the Indian/Liberty head double eagle pattern.  You say two were minted but only one is accounted for today.  How on earth did that example wind up in Charles Barber's "estate"? ... must be nice to be an inside man!  Much as Barber resented St. Gauden's "interference", I suspect he must have respected his artistry.  If the second coin was made and not destroyed by the mint for testing or other reasons, it is hard to believe it has remained hidden for over a century.  Such a beautiful high relief coin!  It will be front page news and probably break sale records when that coin is re-discovered.

        

[RAJ on COINS]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Ross's photos of the UHR are much better than my iPhone photos

 

Thanks Zebo, but don't give me too much credit... I just copied UHR internet images.  I'm still trying to perfect my photography skills when it comes to coins, which I need to do to create a powerpoint for a future coin talk or video.  Your phone photo is great!

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Ross J said:

Thanks Roger!  Appreciate any and all corrections!

Regarding the 1907 patterns, I find it fascinating that the striking force of the press had the effect of "welding" the two eagle planchets into a single coin. 

Me too....in fact, reading FMTM, my biggest problem is I simply have never seen the steps that happen to transform a gold ingot to a finished coin.  I can't visualize the steps and don't know the terminology (i.e, planchets, annealing, etc.). It's like trying to read a book on How To Drive A Car but you've never seen a car or cars on a roadway. 

Maybe there's a Coin Making For Dummies video on YouTube or something on the Mint's website.  The 2009 UHR book I got explains a few things pretty well, but that's for modern coins.  Some of the steps 100 years ago like annealing I am not sure we do them today (maybe we do, no idea).

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Ross J said:

 

I'd like to see the mint issue a modern version of the Indian/Liberty head double eagle pattern.  You say two were minted but only one is accounted for today.  How on earth did that example wind up in Charles Barber's "estate"? ... must be nice to be an inside man!  Much as Barber resented St. Gauden's "interference", I suspect he must have respected his artistry.  If the second coin was made and not destroyed by the mint for testing or other reasons, it is hard to believe it has remained hidden for over a century.  Such a beautiful high relief coin!  It will be front page news and probably break sale records when that coin is re-discovered.

(1)  I believe that John Mercanti created a Winged Liberty coin for some New Hampshire museum commemorative that had some of the ideas or patterns I saw in Roger's Saints book.   It may or may not have been the exact thing, save the date.  But I recall the headdress for Liberty on the obverse and the eagle at rest (not flight) on the reverse.  I think these coins are both in silver (I have them) and gold (I don't).

(2)  Yeah, tell me about Barber having those patterns and coins.....I think he had like 8 1907 UHRs !!!  He sure as hell respected Saint-Gaudens artistic work, or he knew a free moneymaker when he saw it.  I believe his wife or estate sold most or all the coins.  Roger's book as I recall may have traced the lineage of a few 1907 UHRs back to Barber (I don't have the book handy to check, will later). 

Another thing on these patterns/designs/coin models....did Barber sign them out -- are they on the cashier's ledger ?  Did the Super give him persmission or the Treasury Secretary ?  If not, please tell the Secret Service to go to his house and retrieve them.  He's probably very old so give him some time after you knock on the door. 

(3)  I have to believe that the Indian Head UHR would have been found by now if it existed.  No way somebody could have it and not know what it is.  It either got lost/thrown out or destroyed (maybe they knew it would be valuable but didn't want anybody to have it).

Edited May 31, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

There's lots to learn. Fortunately lots of information is available.  What really jump started my coin education was taking Summer Seminar courses at American Numismatic Association headquarters in Colorado Springs.  They had to cancel this year's program for Covid, but they usually have a class or two at their spring and summer conventions.  If you are not an ANA member, I highly recommend it!  

[RWB]

First - Allow me to repeat that the small diameter DE were NOT made by stacking two Eagle planchets. The metal was simply rolled to the correct thickness so that when cut with an Eagle blank cutter, the blank had the same gold as a DE. [See Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 for details.]

RE: "Why did those guys THINK the law would require that ?  What was the harm in leaving them alone and maybe Saint-Gaudens or another Mint employee got to take them home ?"

The only "authority" claiming illegality was T. Louis Comparette, the Curator. Maybe he intended to say the small DE would be illegal coins if adopted? We don;t know. But the result was that the DM assumed the experimental pieces were illegal (which was incorrect) and had all but two destroyed.

[RAJ on COINS]

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(1)  I believe that John Mercanti created a Winged Liberty coin for some New Hampshire museum commemorative that had some of the ideas or patterns I saw in Roger's Saints book.   It may or may not have been the exact thing, save the date.  But I recall the headdress for Liberty on the obverse and the eagle at rest (not flight) on the reverse.  I think these coins are both in silver (I have them) and gold (I don't).

They are cool, but not legal tender mint issued.  He did them as a private commission.  They are equivalent to bullion "tounds".

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(2)  Yeah, tell me about Barber having those patterns and coins.....I think he had like 8 1907 UHRs !!!  He sure as hell respected Saint-Gaudens artistic work, or he knew a free moneymaker when he saw it.  I believe his wife or estate sold most or all the coins.  Roger's book as I recall may have traced the lineage of a few 1907 UHRs back to Barber (I don't have the book handy to check, will later). 

Another thing on these patterns/designs/coin models....did Barber sign them out -- are they on the cashier's ledger ?  Did the Super give him persmission or the Treasury Secretary ?  If not, please tell the Secret Service to go to his house and retrieve them.  He's probably very old so give him some time after you knock on the door. 

Barber actually did his own Double eagle re-design in 1907, perhaps to provide some "competitition" for St. Gaudens.  Can't remember if Roger discusses this in his earlier "Renaissance" book series.  (Can't find my copies at the moment )

Attached is a picture (again from the internet) of the barber designed pattern...

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(3)  I have to believe that the Indian Head UHR would have been found by now if it existed.  No way somebody could have it and not know what it is.  It either got lost/thrown out or destroyed (maybe they knew it would be valuable but didn't want anybody to have it).

You never know with coins!  Don't be surprised if it shows up someday!  

[RAJ on COINS]

I mean bullion "Rounds" not tounds!

[RAJ on COINS]

Ooops! My bad again.  the Barber pattern is 1906, not 1907!

[RWB]

See the article on USPatterns.com concerning Barber's collection of pattern pieces.

The so-called conflict between Barber and Saint-Gaudens was real but on a far smaller, and less sanctimonious scale than presented by Breen and assorted copycats and embellishers. [See Striking Change by Michael Moran]. Barber was justifiably proud of what he and Henri Weil were able to get from Saint-Gaudens' large DE models. This kind of reduction work work was not alien to Barber - he made high relief medals from models routinely. But he was not familiar with the Janvier reducing lathe and Weil was. (See Journal of Numismatic Research Issue #1 for details about Janvier's patent.)