Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[RWB]

RE: "...then take off....eventually, they stop for food and that's when a trailing car can usually hit the car or van which may have lots of valuable stuff."

I've seen a lot of dealers who don't need to stop for food -- they can just lick their shirt !

[GoldFinger1969]

6 hours ago, Ross J said:

That is true, but there was a case like that at a diner in NJ a few years ago that I heard ultimately turned out to be a dealer scam (trying to collect insurance - no theft).  Going to shows definitely does merit some vigilance.  GF: Let me know next year at FUN when you've bought all the SG varieties and I will walk back to your hotel with you (if I don't mug you myself!)    

If you have a link on that being an insurance scam, link it here.  

I believe next year ROSEN PLAZA is closest to OCCC West (or North) wherever it is held.  Not Rosen Inn and not Rosen Center.

[RWB]

But DO NOT stay at the copycat ROSIN PLAZA ! Very abrasive staff and their soap is --- well -- rough !

[RAJ on COINS]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you have a link on that being an insurance scam, link it here. 

God I'm just full of misinformation!    I was told the insurance scam story by a dealer from the Parsippany (NJ) Coin Show (I should have known better).  This much is true.  A dealer stopped to eat at at the Tiffany diner (used to go there with my Mom years ago) in Montville, NJ (where I lived for 31 years), and while eating, coins were stolen from his van.  I just looked it up on the internet.  Here is the link: https://www.nj.com/news/local/2010/12/montville_coin_theft_case_invo.html

It was a real theft, and the dealer was Julian Leidman (Bonanza Coins of Silver Spring Maryland).  Had I known Julian was the dealer, I would have realized the scam story was false on the face of it.  Julian is an honest, top flight dealer who I know and have purchased coins from on a few occasions (yes, even one of my SG varieties in fact!).  He is a staple at the Whitman Baltimore shows, as he lives not too far away.

Thanks for having me check GF!  

[RAJ on COINS]

Here's a better rendition (with a nice picture of Julian).... https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/driven-by-gold-and-silver-prices-thieves-target-coin-collections/2012/06/10/gJQAouh5SV_story.html

[RAJ on COINS]

Here's an interesting tid-bit from recent news:

"...Recent large-quantity melting of vintage U.S. $10 and $20 denomination gold coins struck in the late 19th and early 20th centuries created a shortage in supply and premiums are rising due to higher demand."

Comes from an article authored by Mike Fuljenz.:  https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/fundamentals-for-gold-still-strong-good-for-rare-coins/

I'm aware of this guy.  I've seen him at Mint forums a couple of times and at shows.  He has authored some books and I think he has a decent reputation in the hobby.

I wonder where he got that information?  Sounds like telemarketing style hype to me.  Would love to know who is melting vintage coins and why!

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Ross, I talked to Julian a few times at Parsippany and I think I bought 1 or 2 things from him.  Nice guy !

Edited June 6, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

7 hours ago, Ross J said:

Sounds like telemarketing style hype to me.  Would love to know who is melting vintage coins and why!

Your perception is good. Damaged and jewelry coins get melted - not coins on which there is a collector premium. Holders of these coins are not - in general - stupid.

[ldhair]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It was.  1st time down there and while I got the Rosen hotels mixed up (I met one of the guys from this and another forum but ended up at the WRONG hotel )

But you made it. Had a great time meeting you. Fun evening. Learned a lot from you. 

Like last year the Rosen Centre is still the closest hotel to the show. About a 6 minute walk. Rosen Plaza is about 15 minutes.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by ldhair

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, ldhair said:

But you made it. Had a great time meeting you. Fun evening. Learned a lot from you. 

Like last year the Rosen Centre is still the closest hotel to the show. About a 6 minute walk. Rosen Plaza is about 15 minutes.

Thanks LD....great meeting you, learned alot too from you and we saw part of a good playoff game, Tenn vs. Baltimore.

Hopefully, this virus is all cleared up by November/December when people commit (if they haven't already) to going to FL.

[GoldFinger1969]

9 hours ago, Ross J said:

Here's an interesting tid-bit from recent news: "...Recent large-quantity melting of vintage U.S. $10 and $20 denomination gold coins struck in the late 19th and early 20th centuries created a shortage in supply and premiums are rising due to higher demand."Comes from an article authored by Mike uljenz.:  https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/fundamentals-for-gold-still-strong-good-for-rare-coins/

I'm aware of this guy.  I've seen him at Mint forums a couple of times and at shows.  He has authored some books and I think he has a decent reputation in the hobby.I wonder where he got that information?  Sounds like telemarketing style hype to me.  Would love to know who is melting vintage coins and why!

WTF ?  He's writing an article that quotes him as the source on something that isn't coroborrated by anyone or anything.  This is moronic.

Where did he get the hedge fund information ?  It's anectdotal, and there's no proof from the Commitment of Traders reports or hedge fund holdings releases.  I think he's just making stuff up that can't be demonstrably disproven within 30 seconds and trying to pass it off as fact.

Real interest rates may well be POSITIVE and very high in many parts of the world.  Another factually wrong statement.

CoinWeek is printing something that is 1/2 infomercial advertisement, 1/2 article and it's not clear to the readers except those who can parse the facts from the fiction what is going on.

Edited June 6, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[RAJ on COINS]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

1/2 infomercial advertisement, 1/2 article

I do know in his advertising he calls himself "America's Gold Expert"... sounds a bit pompous to me.  Check this out:  https://www.mikefuljenz.com/

 

[RAJ on COINS]

For FUN in Orlando, I stay at  the Courtyard by Marriott Orlando International Drive/Convention Center.  Longer walk to the Convention Center, shorter walk to Starbucks,  Helps me get my "steps" in!

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Ross J said:

For FUN in Orlando, I stay at  the Courtyard by Marriott Orlando International Drive/Convention Center.  Longer walk to the Convention Center, shorter walk to Starbucks,  Helps me get my "steps" in!

I got my steps in just by walking the bourse.  Even taking cabs and not doing my usual dog walking, I was at about 15,000 steps per day.

[RAJ on COINS]

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I got my steps in just by walking the bourse.

Good point!  You may get more in if "social distancing" spreads things out in 2021.

[GoldFinger1969]

Is anybody here familiar with the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN) ?

I am not sure why it does not have a periodic listing of Saint-Gaudens prices.....it does for Liberty DE's every 3 months it appears.

I got a bunch of old CDN's but aside from a few quotes for Saints via 1-line on a front-page, I don't see any articles or 1 or 1 1/2 pages of quotes for the Saints.  The Page 1 says that Quarterly 3 (March, June, Sept, Dec) says "Double Eagles through 1907."

[MarkFeld]

4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is anybody here familiar with the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN) ?

I am not sure why it does not have a periodic listing of Saint-Gaudens prices.....it does for Liberty DE's every 3 months it appears.

I got a bunch of old CDN's but aside from a few quotes for Saints via 1-line on a front-page, I don't see any articles or 1 or 1 1/2 pages of quotes for the Saints.  The Page 1 says that Quarterly 3 (March, June, Sept, Dec) says "Double Eagles through 1907."

While I don’t have one with me at this time, I’m confident that the CDN lists values for Saints at least as often as it does for Liberty $20’s.

[GoldFinger1969]

38 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

While I don’t have one with me at this time, I’m confident that the CDN lists values for Saints at least as often as it does for Liberty $20’s.

Thanks Mark....I'll keep looking.  But their "Quarterly Sequence" says that "Quarterly 3" in March/June/Sept/Dec will have Double Eagles through 1907.  I see nothing for 1907-Later in the 3 quarterlies and the word "Saints" isn't mentioned (this was in March 2009; maybe Saints got their own separate newsletter back then and they are included today, I don't know).

Anyway, I have about another 50 old ones to look through, so I'll keep checking.....

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Just looked at a 2015 newsletter.....there's a 3" box for Saint-Gaudens prices.  This is what I saw a few years ago, for some reason, they must not have been including it quarterly (or monthly) back in 2009 (the other newsletters I scanned were from that year).

[Conder101]

On 6/5/2020 at 10:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think the shows are now letting people know that they need to be VERY careful

They have been telling dealers and collectors that at shows for at least 60 to 70 years now  And dealers still stop and leave their vehicles unattended.  Even if you can see your vehicle from your resturant table the thieves can still usually clean you out before you can get out to them. (Saw a surveillance video once of a dealer getting ripped off.  They had parked and gone in and were at the window where the could see their vehicle.  Guy was walking past the back end of the parked cars.  When he got to the dealers car he took two quick steps up to the side, smashed the window popped the door open and grabbed a briefcase of coins.  Two steps back to the end of the car where his accomplice had pulled up, dove in and they took off.  Elapsed time was about 10 seconds.) When you are traveling to a from a show it is best to have someone else with you and NEVER leave the vehicle unattended.  Fill up the vehicle before packing up.  If you have to get gas on the way pay at the pump.  You want to eat, use a drive through.  If you are going to need to relieve yourself you either need to have someone with you or carry a wide mouth jar in the car.  When you get close to home call ahead to make sure there is someone there waiting to watch the vehicle while you unload.  And these crooks are willing to follow you a long way.  When Tom Reynolds got robbed years ago they followed him all the way from Ohio to his home in Nebraska .

[RAJ on COINS]

Roger.  Something that always puzzled me.  Oklahoma became a state on November 16, 1907, which was 3 months after Saint Gaudens died.  Therefore, during the entire time of his direct involvement with the design, the United States was comprised of 45 states.  All of the coins, and even his plaster model from December 1906 (in your book) show 46 stars on the obverse.  Do you think that was because the admission of Oklahoma was considered a "done deal" years prior to admission?        

[RAJ on COINS]

1 hour ago, Conder101 said:

They have been telling dealers and collectors that at shows for at least 60 to 70 years now

That's why I'd never be a dealer... Bad enough potentially to carry a few valuable coins on your person at shows then to travel with an entire inventory.  Ditto for coin shops.  I wonder if any were looted this past week? 

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

When Tom Reynolds got robbed years ago they followed him all the way from Ohio to his home in Nebraska .

Before my time, what happened, Conder ?

Edited June 9, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Ross J said:

That's why I'd never be a dealer... Bad enough potentially to carry a few valuable coins on your person at shows then to travel with an entire inventory.  Ditto for coin shops.  I wonder if any were looted this past week? 

I can't believe anybody could be dumb enough to keep valuable coins -- or their MOST valuable -- in their shop unless in a decent area.  Most of the places torched the last week or so were troubled areas.

[RWB]

"Do you think that was because the admission of Oklahoma was considered a "done deal" years prior to admission? "

Yes. "The Oklahoma Enabling Act of 1906 allowed the writing of the constitution, and the territorial period officially ended on statehood day, November 16, 1907." [Kenny L Brown, Oklahoma Historical Society]

[RAJ on COINS]

15 hours ago, RWB said:

Yes. "The Oklahoma Enabling Act of 1906 allowed the writing of the constitution, and the territorial period officially ended on statehood day, November 16, 1907." [Kenny L Brown, Oklahoma Historical Society]

Thanks for that.  We know beginning in 1912, two stars were added for Arizona and New Mexico, bringing the total to 48.  Again, I assume sufficient "heads-up" was given such that there were no 1912 dies made with 46 stars (or no 1911 ones made with 48).  Your book mentions a new master die for 1912.  Was that to facilitate adding the stars?  Was the process: existing Master hub makes new master die... two additional stars are then "punched" into the oak leaf area to bring the total to 48?  In writing your book, did you ever consider referring to the series by sub-types?  Seems logical the '07 high reliefs might be Type I, 1907-08 low relief "No Motto's" Type II, 1908-1911 "46 stars with Motto" Type III, and 1912-1933 "48 star" Type IV.  (I ignored the short and long rays as a "modified" design element, rather than elements that either are there or they are not.)  

[RAJ on COINS]

19 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I can't believe anybody could be dumb enough to keep valuable coins -- or their MOST valuable -- in their shop unless in a decent area.

I'm sure most don't.  In any case, I wouldn't want a shop in this current social climate anywhere, what with the police on the defensive and potential thieves emboldened.  Wonder what if any steps Stacks took in New York?  I think they are on 46th street not far from Madison Avenue, which got trashed.   If it were me, I might be inclined to hustle the inventory to Dave Bower's house in Wolfeboro, New Hampshire!   

[RWB]

46 versus 48 stars.

I did not consider the 48 star coins (DE or E) as a new design type because the only change was addition of two stars to the master design die. In 1908, the complete obverse or reverse was changed along with the pairing of designs.

Addition of a new state required considerable advance planning and operational changes to move from a Territorial Organic Act to a State Enabling Act and execution. Possibly the best known exceptions were Texas, California and West Virginia.

[RAJ on COINS]

7 hours ago, RWB said:

46 versus 48 stars.

I did not consider the 48 star coins (DE or E) as a new design type because the only change was addition of two stars to the master design die.

Makes perfect sense.  Were the collar dies on the eagle coin also changed in 1912?  Might there be some 46 star 1912's out there?

[RWB]

22 minutes ago, Ross J said:

Makes perfect sense.  Were the collar dies on the eagle coin also changed in 1912?  Might there be some 46 star 1912's out there?

The Eagle collar dies followed the same process, so they all have the same star count.