Kirt Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) So, I liked to think of myself as an advanced amateur...until today. Backstory: this coin has been in my grandfather's, then my possession since it was found in May 1985. When he left it to me, the estate's appraiser inventoried it at melt value, stating it was worn. There was also a bunch of "junk silver" again inventoried at melt. This morning while moving a cabinet, I dropped the bag of junk silver on my bare foot. While contemplating my idiocy and icing my foot, I took a look at the "junk silver" - and it wasn't junk, at all. No monsters, but nice very lightly circulated Morgans and Peace. Some may even be AU. I decided to take a look at my "worn" Indian which was still sitting in the paper envelope I got it in, and...it's not worn. I have spent the last ten hours beating my head against grading $2.5 Indians in vain. This coin has me utterly beaten - I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between any of the grades higher than XF. What am I missing? Many life lessons for me today, from don't move cabinets with stuff still in them to check what's in those envelopes that are supposed to have coins in, to never trust anyone, even appraisers. Edited January 6, 2020 by Kirt clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Coinbuf Posted January 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 6, 2020 These are not the easiest to grade even for advanced collectors so no need to beat yourself up. I've circled some areas on your pic to pay attention to. First on the rev the wing near the breast is the high point and will have a luster break or wear first on circulated coins. On the obv the cheek and headdress will usually be the first to show luster break or wear. Your coin from the pic looks to be mint state perhaps MS62 or MS63 as long as there are no hairlines that are not evident on the pic. The bad news is that for this series there is not a large price gap between AU and MS, but better than melt price for sure. It looks like a nice coin and a very nice family heirloom to pass on. Kirt, Crawtomatic and Matt_dac 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 12 minutes ago, Coinbuf said: These are not the easiest to grade even for advanced collectors so no need to beat yourself up. I've circled some areas on your pic to pay attention to. First on the rev the wing near the breast is the high point and will have a luster break or wear first on circulated coins. On the obv the cheek and headdress will usually be the first to show luster break or wear. Your coin from the pic looks to be mint state perhaps MS62 or MS63 as long as there are no hairlines that are not evident on the pic. Thank you. When I have good light again tomorrow morning, I'll take a sharp look at those areas. I didn't see any hairlines but these things are so damn small. And thanks for the words of encouragement - I don't mind getting stumped by foreign coins, but it's the first time in a long time I've gotten frustrated by a US coin. 14 minutes ago, Coinbuf said: The bad news is that for this series there is not a large price gap between AU and MS, but better than melt price for sure. It looks like a nice coin and a very nice family heirloom to pass on. That is - thankfully - completely irrelevant to me. I have never, and will never, collect based on value. I collect based on what I like, and despite the frustration I like this coin (and its memories). It's clearly worth getting graded, too, so it will get sent in shortly. However, I felt I needed to know a bit more before sending it. Thanks again for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKK Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Nice piece. Doesn't show any signs of the incuse Indian head gold fakes I recently ran into, which doesn't guarantee authenticity, but is better news than if they did. Wear looks very light; AU-58 seems quite reasonable. If the slight flattening on the high points is strike weakness, could be MS. Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, JKK said: Nice piece. Doesn't show any signs of the incuse Indian head gold fakes I recently ran into, which doesn't guarantee authenticity, but is better news than if they did. Wear looks very light; AU-58 seems quite reasonable. If the slight flattening on the high points is strike weakness, could be MS. Heh, I checked very, very carefully against that post...even though I'm completely certain on authenticity with this one as I was present when it was found. My certainty, however, and a buck seventy five will still only get someone a cup of coffee. Thanks for the guidance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six Mile Rick Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Kirt, If you stay in the U S coin territory it would help your grading to get the official A N A Grading Standards. Your coin looks great but the wear or weak die seems to be the front band of the head dress. The triangles that are in it are wore or weak die. Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed pulling out the old book to check it out. Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 @Kirt If you do decide to submit this coin please update this thread with the result, always interesting to see how it will grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 17 hours ago, Six Mile Rick said: Kirt, If you stay in the U S coin territory it would help your grading to get the official A N A Grading Standards. Your coin looks great but the wear or weak die seems to be the front band of the head dress. The triangles that are in it are wore or weak die. Thanks for sharing! I enjoyed pulling out the old book to check it out. Thanks for the help. I see exactly what you're saying about the band on the headdress in the image; the coin in hand is more distinct but not as strong as that shown in the high-resolution image of the best coin I could find online (an MS67). I lack the experience on these coins to tell if it is wear or weak strike. I spent another frustrating day looking at this thing; I am embarrassed to admit I just *can't see* what others are seeing. I can read the words describing what to look for in terms of grading, but my eyes just do not see what's described! Very frustrating. Glad you enjoyed checking it out! 16 hours ago, Coinbuf said: @Kirt If you do decide to submit this coin please update this thread with the result, always interesting to see how it will grade. It's shipping out tomorrow and I will update the thread once I receive a grade. I asked for PhotoVision so will share that too. After spending the day staring at it again, I have convinced myself that it's an off-center strike (obverse shifted top left @ 10 o'clock). Hoping it's not a psychological coping mechanism for being unable to grade it! Rather than debate that over photos, I just ponied up the extra $15 and we'll see what NGC says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 Update: PhotoVision is in, still not graded. In the negatives: there are a lot more hairline scratches than are apparent under a 5x loupe. In particular, the cheek, the bottom of the headdress, and the lower feathers on the bonnet have me worried. However, these damn coins still confuse me as I see quite a few scratches on MS fields in comparison to what I'm used to. There is something very weird happening at his throat. I can't believe on an incuse coin that could be damage, but it's not as it is supposed to be (again, something I did not see in hand). It's dirty. Like going to see the dentist with spinach in your teeth! In the positive: It's well struck in comparison to many 1912s with softer strikes The photo clearly shows the off-center strike on obverse, the star directly at his nose runs off the rim and there is a raised "rim" from 3:00 to 5:30 opposite In the "what the heck": There is SOMETHING up with the back of the topmost feathers of the bonnet - if it was any other coin, I'd say it's PMD but it sure looks like an incomplete strike - the area looks level with the field of the coin And I've made precisely no progress with my ability to distinguish grades on this coin, even with an amazing pic right in front of me. Guess I know what coins I'll never buy! Big thanks to the folks at NGC Photo Vision for amazing pics, whatever the coin grades! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbpll Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 The stuff in the throat looks to be a good match for a die clash from the eagle's shoulder. I can even see feather detail. Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 16, 2020 Author Share Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, kbbpll said: The stuff in the throat looks to be a good match for a die clash from the eagle's shoulder. I can even see feather detail. Karma is a really harsh mistress. So in less than 48 hours I go from arguing AGAINST looking for errors on coins to having one with not one, not two, but THREE probable errors. Of course it's a die clash, you're absolutely right, the feather pattern is identical and the position is spot on. I'm not a photoshop wiz or we'd have one of those ghosted obverse/reverse images to show it. It would have been extremely helpful to have the Photo Vision image before I submitted for grading so all three (off center/die clash/die break or crack) could have been assessed at the same time. EDIT: Better at Photoshop than I thought - it's not the shoulder, the curve is wrong. It's the hind leg: Edited January 17, 2020 by Kirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbbpll Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) I think you rotated your overlay instead of flipping it. Edit: I'm not smart enough to do an overlay so use your imagination. Edited January 17, 2020 by kbbpll Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, kbbpll said: I think you rotated your overlay instead of flipping it. Edit: I'm not smart enough to do an overlay so use your imagination. And this is why I'm not an engineer. I am scary bad with conceptualizing 3D problems. Despite not being smart enough to do an overlay (correctly) either here's the fixed version. Shoulder, 100%. Added bonus - 2nd die clash, the tailfeathers are the additional material on the top feathers of the headdress. Edited January 17, 2020 by Kirt Coinbuf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 20, 2020 Author Share Posted January 20, 2020 Verdict is in...AU DETAILS - CLEANED. I was prepared after I saw the hairlines in PhotoVision. It really doesn't matter as I don't intend to sell it, plus there's the benefit of having the clear, traceable images that show a pretty darn clear die clash - thanks to @kbbpll for that; I can continue to say I don't collect errors and don't really look for them! For those who care, here's the story since it's now demonstrably an authentic coin. My grandfather found the coin in the dirt on a piece of land he owned. I recognize the color of the dirt from the residue still inside the design; it's that reddish-brown especially visible at the tip of the arrows. He wasn't up on the intricacies of owning gold and still thought it was illegal so kept it quiet for quite some time; as he and I both collected coins I was sworn to secrecy. What a great secret for a kid! Illegal gold! Of course by the time it was found, it was legal to own. Every time we'd compare notes on our collections, he'd always trump whatever I had with his "illegal gold." We also collected opium bottles and prohibition-era whiskey bottles, the little ones designed to be concealed in a breast or hip pocket - I still have half a dozen of them. I loved the scandal of it all. He always promised he would leave it to me and he did; enter the appraisal that stated it was melt. I don't know why I didn't check - at the time I had recently become a father for the second time and life was hectic, I guess. So that's the story. Now I suppose I better go through the Morgans that fell on my foot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coinbuf Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 I personally still think its a softly struck UNC but my opinion isn't worth much too bad that it came back cleaned I didn't see any signs of that in the initial photos but that's the problem in grading from photos. Still a very nice coin and a great piece and story to be handed down to younger family members down the road. Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgrinz Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) You were so flummoxed I was hoping for an MS grade for you :-) Nice Coin STILL! Edited January 22, 2020 by jgrinz Kirt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirt Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 On 1/22/2020 at 5:48 PM, jgrinz said: You were so flummoxed I was hoping for an MS grade for you :-) Nice Coin STILL! Thanks but no worries - there's lots of room for improvement over melt. I think a lot of the flummoxed had to do more with my foot (I did wind up in Urgent Care with a nasty sprain and swelling) than the coin, but there was a what the.... moment. I think I'm happier with the AU than an MS although not as happy with the cleaned. I don't make it a habit to collect MS coins - they just feel too sterile for me, I like a little grime and some wear. It makes me feel the history. I have a worthless Moroccan note from the 40s that still has all the smells of the bazaar: the spices, the smoke. I love that thing. This coin is still beautiful and there's the error component too which makes it interesting. Overall, I'm pretty darn happy! writer1102 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
