Kool-Aid®

[Beijim]

Check this out - people are really drinking the PCGS Kool-Aid® by the 55 gallon drum where modern commemoratives are concerned:

 

1982-D Washington Commem Half PCGS MS69

 

This item just closed tonight. The successful high bid (if you can believe it) was $1,189. And, by total coincidence, this population 40 coin was offered by David Hall Rare Coins. Amazing!

 

Earlier this week, the same exact coin in the same exact grade but certified by NGC sold for $300. Earlier tonight, the same coin but graded MS68 and not sold by David Hall Rare Coins sold for $87.

 

Is this a case of wise numismatists buying the coin and not the holder? In case the question isn't sufficiently rhetorical, this is but one example from the past month or so of the ludicrous price spreads in modern commems between NGC and PCGS certified examples. Clearly people are collecting acrylic as might automatons, without regard for the actual quality and value of the coins contained therein.

 

Beijim

 

[keithdagen]

Beijim,

 

This coin is extremely hard to make in MS-69. At one time, I had made about 40% of the MS-68 population, and up until about a year and a half ago, there were NO MS-69's. (PCGS submissions only).

 

The piece was packaged in plastic sleeves like the mint sets are, and most have slide marks that limit the grade. It is extremely hard to find in MS-69. I have not seen NGC pieces for the issue, but the perception is that NGC grades slightly looser on these.

 

Very soon, I plan on testing this theory.

[Beijim]

Keith,

 

Fascinating info - thanks!

 

I have two in for grading at present with NGC. They seemed very nice examples when I examined them, but I'm no grading expert. It'll be interesting to see what results I get on my limited sample.

 

Beijim

[jtryka]

You know, I have one of these that looks about the same to me but it's in a 67 holder. Of course, for $4 plus $12 grading, I am satisfied. And yes, I know that a 69 is "exponentially better" than a 67, but what does it really mean? 10 fewer marks? 5 fewer marks? Let's see, if 10 that works out to about $117 per mark, 5 fewer is $235 per mark. I suppose there are worse examples out there, but it's really something to ponder.

 

Let's put it in these terms: one mark on an 82 unc Wash commem half=one 1883-CC Morgan in MS-64.

[Wihlborg]

Hi Keith,

Years ago I bought a 1982d Washington at a local coin show graded MS-69 by NGC for $50. At the time I was not collecting modern comm.'s, I just thought it was a very nice design.

 

When I did begin collecting modern comm.'s I found that I had most of these in PCGS holders, so I sent the 1982d in as a crossover to PCGS so that all my modern comm.'s would be in the same holders. PCGS did cross this coin as a MS-69. This was before all the rage over the reg. sets.

 

What this tells me is that the perception of NGC coins not being equal to PCGS coins is just not true. You should always buy the coin and not the holder, and if you do it will make no difference what holder the coin is in.

 

One other point I would like to make is that I have seen a lot more coins in PCGS holders that IMO were under graded then I have in NGC holders. I do believe that NGC grades the coin correctly the first time.

 

John

 

[keithdagen]

What this tells me is that the perception of NGC coins not being equal to PCGS coins is just not true. You should always buy the coin and not the holder, and if you do it will make no difference what holder the coin is in.

 

When I put my set together, I looked at a lot of ANACS, NGC, ICG, and PCGS modern commems. There was a difference between the quality of coins in the holders, espcially on the gold issues.

 

I ended up buying about 20% of my collection, and made the other 80% by buying the sets raw, then having them slabbed myself. I probably slabbed about 500 commems total over the year period I was assembling my set. It's been over two years since I liquidated the set, so I haven't seen what the current slabs are looking like as far as grading, but at the time, the PCGS coins were generally better.

[Hoot]

I had the same shock over this coin as Beijim has. I also think the price spread is ludicrous - it reminds me of buffalo nickels in high grades!!! I agree with you Keith that the coin is tough to locate in the ultra grades, but I bought one last year, an MS68 NGC, a real nice example, for 40 bucks. Satisfying, and I suppose that's what it boils down to .

 

Hoot

[Wihlborg]

Keith,

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if you have two coins, with no difference between the quality of coins and one is in a NGC holder graded MS-69 and the other in a PCGS holder graded MS-68 Which coin is really better?

 

Sure the PCGS MS-68 coin is nice; it should be if it's really a higher grade coin.

 

I have complete sets of modern dollar and half dollar commems. All graded MS-69 and a couple MS-70 by PCGS. I truly believe that a good number of the MS-69 coins would grade MS-70 if cracked out and resubmitted to NGC, not because NGC would grade them looser but because the coins are that nice. If a coin is a MS-70 it should be graded as such, it should not have to be a MS-71.

 

John

 

[keithdagen]

I guess the point I was tiring to make is that if you have two coins, with no difference between the quality of coins and one is in a NGC holder graded MS-69 and the other in a PCGS holder graded MS-68 Which coin is really better?

 

$300 for the NGC MS-69 or $75 for the PCGS MS-68. PCGS is better because it doesn't cost as much.

 

Like I said, I made a lot of those MS-68's for this issue, and although I thought that a few had a shot at MS-69, there were generally too many marks to qualify as such. It should be pointed out that almost all of PCGS's population of MS-69's was made from a hoard submission, all at once. Very few others have been made individually, either by crossing, or by raw submission, so getting one to cross is quite an achievement.

[keithdagen]

but I bought one last year, an MS68 NGC, a real nice example, for 40 bucks. Satisfying, and I suppose that's what it boils down to

 

I agree. I never managed a 69 on that piece and settled for a 68. The hit that pulled the piece out of 69 territory wasn't visible without magnification, so overall, it was nice.

 

And when I sold my set, it was a nice profit since it sold for about $80, and it cost me $4 plus grading fees.

 

I personally don't see the need for a set of flawless coins, but as long as others do, I'm willing to look through sets and submit them to the services.

[gmarguli]

Some info on these coins in MS69.

 

The pop of this coin was 1 when it sold on TeleTrash. It realized a price of over $5000 including fees.

 

Bob Lecce was the person who made the mini-horde of them. He made 14 of them. This was around November 2001. He says he searched over 10,000 coins for these, so basically he found 1 MS69 for every 715 coins he searched. At this point the pop was 15 and he sold one on eBay for $2150. He also sold a 3 to wondercoin around this time.

 

Since then 25 more coins have been made in MS69.

 

My guess is that since the pop went up from 1 to 15 and people saw PCGS was willing to make an MS69 for this coin and people started to see the selling prices and went searching for them and found a bunch.

 

Personally, I think this is a $250 coin at best.

 

I've got a raw one that is a super PQ MS68 with fully prooflike surfaces. It's going into NGC rather soon.

[BankNote1]

$1200.00 for a '82-D Washington? Even if there are only 40 graded MS69 by PCGS, this seems a lot for a very common coin that was never released to circulation. I added up the census of both PCGS and NGC and only 1007 total have been graded in all grades by both services. Most of which are MS65 and higher. This only leaves about 2,209,000 left to be graded! If only 1/2 of 1% of that total are MS69 that would be 11,000 still out there somewhere? I just don't get it, you can buy these things everywhere for $5.00 or so. I wonder how many collectors (or Profesional graders) could accually tell the difference in a MS68 and MS69 nine times out of ten, or 1 time out of ten. If this isn't a case of buying a plastic holder then what is!!!

[keithdagen]

I just don't get it, you can buy these things everywhere for $5.00 or so. I wonder how many collectors (or Profesional graders) could accually tell the difference in a MS68 and MS69 nine times out of ten, or 1 time out of ten. If this isn't a case of buying a plastic holder then what is!!!

 

I won't argue the plastic side of the equation, but most of these have bad milkspots or slide marks, and even though they are readily available, they are hard to find nice looking (even if you'll settle for a lower graded piece.)

[Wihlborg]

Keith,

I was talking about coins in general, not the 1982d Washington. All I am saying is that I have seen a lot of PCGS coins that IMO are under graded. Not all of them and not only PCGS, but IMO more in PCGS holders than NGC holders.

 

I have cherry picked many PCGS coins that up graded at NGC. IMO this is the primary reason for the price difference between PCGS & NGC coins.

 

Like I said, I buy the coin not the holder. If I think the coin is correctly graded and has nice eye appeal I buy it, and believe me I am very picky. No one should buy coins blindly just because they are in one company’s holder.

 

John